Pakistan's New Chinese 'Hangor' Subs: Indian Navy Losing Edge? | CTRL ALT DEFENCE Ep 26

巴基斯坦新购中国 “汉果尔” 级潜艇：印度海军优势不再？

With the Pakistan Navy set to acquire its first few made-in-China Hangor class submarines, Shiv Aroor and Vishnu Som look at its potential impact on the Indian Navy, particularly since the Project 17I project to build a class of diesel-electric submarines in India is nowhere near realisation.

巴基斯坦海军即将接收首批中国制造的汉果尔级潜艇，该潜艇会对印度海军造成什么潜在影响 —— 尤其是印度本土建造柴电潜艇的 “17I 项目” 目前仍远未成型。

以下是各国网友的评论：

nvidian
1-Pakistan already has AIP capable submarines, MESMA AIP equipped Augusta 90B Khalid class
2- Recently Pak has detected/tracked Indian submarines through their ASW aircrafts atleast 4 times. Videos of that were also released by Pak navy.
Pak has already AIP capability for long time

1-巴基斯坦早就有具备不依赖空气推进系统（AIP）的潜艇了，就是搭载MESMA型AIP系统的“奥古斯塔90B”级潜艇。

2-最近巴基斯坦用反潜机至少4次探测并追踪到了印度潜艇，巴海军还发布了相关视频。

巴基斯坦掌握AIP技术已经很多年了。

TheTaimoor00007
Pakistan acquired YJ-17 hypersonic missiles
INS Vikrant Left the chat

巴基斯坦已经获得了鹰击-17高超音速导弹，印度“维克兰特”号航母直接没辙了，发现自己毫无还手之力了！

akma2501
pakistan already had the best weapons in the world all free of cost, best american and chinese. india had only the 2nd best from abroad and her own secret integrated air defense never tested in battle before.
folland gnat versus f86 sabre f104 starfighter chieftains versus pattons. mig 21 versus f 16. and so on.
yet s 1 is a resounding defeat of nuclear pakistan by non nuclear weapons of india.
despite all automation the human matters more than the machine and will be so for foreseeable future. indian weaponry was always inferior to pakistan but always defeated them.
let us see whether this remains true in s 2 too.

巴基斯坦早就有世界上最先进的武器了，还全是免费拿的——既有美国的顶尖装备，也有中国的。而印度只能从国外弄到二流武器，自己所谓的秘密综合防空系统，从来没经过实战检验。

比如“蚊蚋”战机对F-86“佩刀”、F-104“星战士”，“酋长”坦克对“巴顿”坦克，米格-21对F-16，诸如此类。

但第一次印巴战争中，拥有核武器的巴基斯坦，却被没有核武器的印度彻底击败了。

不管自动化程度多高，人始终比武器重要，而且在可预见的未来都会如此。印度的武器装备向来不如巴基斯坦，却总能打败他们。看看第二次印巴战争会不会还是这样。

haseebshahid7059
Pakistan Hangor class submarines equipped with hypersonic YJ-17 spells death for Indian Navy in Indian Ocean Region (IOR).

巴基斯坦的“汉果尔”级潜艇搭载了鹰击-17高超音速导弹，这对印度洋区域的印度海军来说简直是致命打击。

strawhat9319
Our government and defence officials favourite time pass....tenders... testing...price negotiation... transfer technology... sending files from one department to others

我们的政府和国防官员就爱干这些打发时间的事：招标、测试、价格谈判、技术转让、部门间来回传递文件。

asifbhura8858
Forgot to mention KICK BACKS

忘了说还有“回扣”这回事！

salmanmunir765
A breath of fresh air from INDIAN media....UNBIASED ,REALISTIC & ACCURATE. HOWEVER WAR SHALL NEVER BE A SOLUTION BETWEEN TWO NEIGHBOURS.

印度媒体居然能出这样客观、现实又准确的内容，真是一股清流。不过，战争永远不会是两个邻国之间的解决方案。

qxts-tradingshow
Your 4 submariens have been detected by Pakistan. So dont count them in your 15 submarines.

你们有4艘潜艇已经被巴基斯坦探测到了，所以这4艘就别算在你们那15艘潜艇里了。

brihdratha
In a few years we will start comparing India to Bangladesh military as even prokistan would have surpassed us

再过几年，我们可能都要拿印度和孟加拉国的军事实力对比了，因为就连巴基斯坦都会超过我们。

thelayman6189
I am unsure why no-one realises India's first priority should be the S500 and not just one, but many of them. And the first things to stop is ordering more and more S400s and feeling happy

我搞不懂为什么没人意识到，印度的首要任务应该是采购S-500防空系统，而且不能只买一套，得多买几套。

kasshif01
It’s very easy to say Pakistan navy totally pin down but in reality vikrant hanger down on east coast lol

嘴上说巴基斯坦海军被完全牵制住了很容易，但实际上“维克兰特”号航母还在东海岸趴窝呢，哈哈

ananthanr8938
With a narrow theater of operation in Arabian sea with 8 Subs that can stay down for 14 days none of Indian Navies destroyers and frigates would be free to operate. More or less Pakistan and China has completely neutralized Indias Surface Naval superiority . Rajnath Singh's statements are hollow rhetoric. Indian citizens should face the truth. The press needs to be aggressive.

在阿拉伯海这个狭窄的作战区域，巴基斯坦有8艘能水下停留14天的潜艇，印度海军的驱逐舰和护卫舰根本没法自由行动。巴基斯坦和中国差不多已经完全瓦解了印度的水面舰艇优势。拉杰纳特·辛格的言论全是空洞的豪言壮语。印度民众应该面对现实，媒体也该更敢说真话。

manojgoel3910
Don't know why our defence planner are so pathetic, one with IAF MRCA and second with submarines. If there are 3 top priority one need to have, it has to be 1. Tanks for Army 2. fighters aircraft for airforce and 3. Submarine for navy. all other expenses comes after that

真搞不懂我们的国防规划者怎么这么窝囊，一个是印度空军的中型多用途战斗机（MRCA）项目，另一个就是潜艇项目，都搞不好。如果说有三项最该优先投入的，那肯定是：1. 陆军的坦克；2. 空军的战斗机；3. 海军的潜艇。其他所有开支都该排在后面。

dushyantchaudhry4654
1. A single query from one bidder pushes the entire process by weeks. This happens repeatedly. People are so scared of enquiries of claims of mal practices.
2. That said, the larger delay is due to the absence of the private sector. Do a search for autonomous vehicles, or anything with AI. The number and quality of resarch papers from Chinese universities is amazing.
We need to build our drone forces via the private sector. Not sure why the likes of Infosy and TCS don't diversify.

1. 只要有一个投标人提出质疑，整个项目进程就会拖延好几周，这种事还反复发生。大家都怕被调查，怕被指控存在违规行为。

2. 话虽如此，更大的延误还是因为没有私营部门参与。你去搜搜自动驾驶汽车或者任何和人工智能相关的领域，中国大学发表的研究论文数量和质量都高得惊人。

我们应该通过私营部门来组建无人机部队。真搞不懂像印孚瑟斯（Infosys）和塔塔咨询服务公司（TCS）这样的企业为什么不多元化发展。

ashash7223
Clearly india is lagging behind in air power and now in sea too .

很明显，印度在空军实力上已经落后了，现在海军也不行了。

crunchythoughts4109
Agosta 90-B Submarines of pakistan navy have MESMA AIP since 2008 !!

巴基斯坦海军的“奥古斯塔90-B”级潜艇，从2008年起就配备MESMA型AIP系统了！

ZamirAbbasi-r3o
Pakistan also worked with turkey for a small size submarine

巴基斯坦还和土耳其合作研发了小型潜艇。

shahzadmasood4511
BTW, Pakistan has been using AIP aided subs since 1990s. Agosta-90Bs came with AIP.

顺便说一句，巴基斯坦从20世纪90年代起就一直在用配备AIP系统的潜艇了，“奥古斯塔-90B”级潜艇本来就自带AIP系统。

ismailraja8734
Pakistan news channels make no news and updates about indian Arms forces updates , this confirms that Pakistani public and Pakistan Army is not worried about indian Arms Forces Upgradation . People of Pakistan is satisfied with Pakistan Arms Forces time after time upgrades

巴基斯坦的新闻频道根本不报道印度军队的最新动态，这说明巴基斯坦民众和巴基斯坦军队根本不担心印度军队的升级。巴基斯坦民众对巴基斯坦军队一次次的装备升级感到满意。

senthilprakash3419
One of our DRDO Labs has complete indigenous design of AIP with advanced Technology. An working AIP in dubs is yet to be built. Chinese Hangkor subs with AIP to Pakistan are definite security threat, unless our subs with AIP comes before hand.

我们国防研究与发展组织（DRDO）的一个实验室，已经有了完整的自主研发先进AIP系统设计方案，但还没造出能实际运行的AIP潜艇。中国向巴基斯坦出口的带AIP系统的“汉果尔”级潜艇，无疑是重大安全威胁，除非我们的AIP潜艇能抢先列装。

Aaadil8
J10C has superior BVRs, PL15 than Rafale's Meteor... PAF will soon be acquiring 5th generation J35 while AMCA will probably fly in 2035... Now we are getting Hangor submarines, equipped with air independent propulsion capability which you war mongers don't have...So why the hell do you guys threaten us when you don't even match our capabilities?? I am totally against war BUT since your fascist Modi thrives on anti Pakistan narrative, so you Indians should realise that threatening a formidable adversary like Pakistan can have dire consequences for India! Peace from Lahore!

歼-10C的超视距作战能力和霹雳-15导弹，都比“阵风”的“流星”导弹更先进。巴基斯坦空军（PAF）很快就会列装第五代歼-35战机，而印度的AMCA战机可能要到2035年才能首飞。现在我们又要接收“汉果尔”级潜艇，配备了你们这些好战分子没有的不依赖空气推进系统（AIP）。所以你们连我们的实力都比不上，凭什么威胁我们？我完全反对战争，但既然你们的法西斯分子莫迪靠反巴言论发家，那印度人就该意识到，威胁巴基斯坦这样强大的对手，会给印度带来可怕的后果！来自拉合尔的和平祝福！

anpat57
The problem with DPSUs is absorption of technologies and evolving from there to keep up with the latest changes around the world. They get tech transfers and follow blueprints to assemble;manufacture often with multiple years of delays. There is no effort to absorb technologies and create their own skills to design and manufacture for future. Koreans and Chinese have done much better in learning from tech transfers and build their own capabilities. Japan was a reasonably good naval power around world war 2. It was relatively easy for them to jump start. Scorpion doesn't have vertical missile launch tubes.

印度国防公营企业（DPSUs）的问题在于技术吸收能力，以及无法在此基础上创新以跟上世界最新变化。他们拿到技术转让后，只是照着蓝图组装生产，还经常延误好几年。他们根本不努力吸收技术，也不培养自己的设计和制造能力以应对未来需求。韩国和中国在技术转让中学习得更好，还建立了自己的能力。二战时期日本就已经是不错的海军强国了，他们重新起步相对容易。“天蝎座”潜艇没有垂直导弹发射管。

rizwankhursheed3621
India’s military projection may sometimes be more performative or image-driven: large-scale parades, dramatic media coverage, and symbolic displays of strength rather than transparent assessments of capability or readiness.

印度的军事展示有时更注重表面功夫或形象塑造：大规模阅兵、夸张的媒体报道、象征性的实力展示，而不是对自身能力或战备状态进行透明评估。

sudhanvabalakrishna9777
Idea for a future episode : All wars from now on will be drone wars. Where does India stand in drone and counter-drone technology and what have we learnt from the Russia-Ukraine war?

从今往后所有战争都会是无人机战争。印度在无人机和反无人机技术领域处于什么水平？我们从俄乌战争中学到了什么？

Aditav8680
Rather than beating drum, this actual issues needs to be covered, these are the main things, Bring Experts also

别再自吹自擂了，应该报道这些实际存在的问题，这些才是关键。也请一些专家来谈谈吧。

jonaground
Submarines are one thing...................Future wars will be fought and decided via the AIR battles , who ever gains superior air dominance will call the shots eventually , then steps in the ground forces and possibly the Navy at the last stage if required.

潜艇是一回事，未来的战争将通过空战展开并决出胜负，谁能获得制空权，最终就能说了算。之后才会轮到陆军介入，海军可能只在最后阶段按需参与。

ArkoProvoMukherjee
Unfortunate that the proposed project 76 never came up. We lag the Chinese as we always prioritize buying from outside than pushing to design and build within, which gives us full control over the capabilities.

可惜提议中的76号项目从未启动。我们之所以落后于中国，是因为我们总是优先从国外采购，而不是推动本土设计和制造——本土研发才能让我们完全掌控装备性能。

shantanushekharsjunerft9783
We work only when kicked in the rear. There is a reason why Indians succeed outside of India.

我们只有被逼到份上才会行动。印度人在国外能成功，这也是有原因的。

iAmInvesting
So pakistan is correctly saying that Indian Navy is weak and INS Vikrant cannot protect itself even. Eye opener program

所以巴基斯坦说的是对的，印度海军确实很弱，“维克兰特”号航母甚至都保护不了自己。

Pakistan Navy already operates Three French origin AGOSTA-90B AIP equipped Diesel electric Submarines. We already have silent and long endurace Submarines which have clear technological edge over Indian Navy in terms of capabilities and Quality. Not numbers which Indian Navy has.

巴基斯坦海军已经在运营三艘法国原产的“奥古斯塔-90B”级AIP柴电潜艇。我们已经拥有静音效果好、续航能力强的潜艇，在性能和质量上对印度海军有明显技术优势——而不是印度海军那种只靠数量取胜。

akesouthTiger-tw6es
India should put off all major military projects and focus on develo its economy. Do not waste your resources. Otherwise, India military will remain weak forever

印度应该暂停所有重大军事项目，专注于发展经济。别浪费资源了，不然印度军队永远都会这么弱。

继续阅读：巴基斯坦   潜艇   印度海军

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