从这里了解印度人对中国的看法

惊奇上海:我愿作为普通人生活在上海

2013-11-11 09:11 85个评论 字号:

上海是世界最大的城市,以前从未在我的旅行计划中。现在,我希望回到那小住一段时间,以发现更多上次简短旅行带来的惊奇。多么伟大的城市!简要来说:上海具有与生俱来的全球化和包容性。情况是这样:飞机降落在浦东机场,你会见到和德里华而不实的T3国际机场一样的豪华。不同的是这里的海关人员相当专业;这里没有偶尔出没的监督员;也没有马屁虫逢迎大人物;安保人员是真正负责的,不是搜刮手下的家伙。

译者:whiteeagle
来源:三泰虎论坛 http://bbs.santaihu.com
原文地址:http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/capital-letter/entry/shanghai-surprise

867a03f95c1e109d5ee7d8d6425d11a0

Shanghai: This city, the largest in the world, was never on my bucket list. Now, I want to go back to hang out and discover the promise it revealed on an abbreviated trip. What a wonderful town! Just an off-the-top assessment: this city was born global and has embraced, unlike Bombay, its international heritage.

上海: 世界最大的城市,以前从未在我的旅行计划中。现在,我希望回到那小住一段时间,以发现更多上次简短旅行带来的惊奇。多么伟大的城市!简要来说:上海具有与生俱来的全球化和包容性,不像孟买,是一个国际遗产。(最后一句求指正)

So here’s the thing: you land at the Pudong International Airport and get the sense of desolate grandeur and last-mile incompetence that you see at Delhi’s T3 white-elephant terminal. The difference is the immigration officials all looked very professional; there were no casual “supervisors” hanging about; no officious flunkies escorting VIPs; the security men were real, not guys scratching their privates.

情况是这样:飞机降落在浦东机场,你会见到和德里华而不实的T3国际机场一样的豪华和ast-mile incompetence(?)。不同的是这里的海关人员相当专业;这里没有偶尔出没的监督员;也没有马屁虫逢迎大人物;安保人员是真正负责的,不是搜刮手下的家伙。

Our designated chauffer was waiting with a graphically soothing placard; young fellow who spoke English and was exceptionally polite. He drove us on wonderful, well-lit expressways to our hotel. We couldn’t see much of the city because of the smog but the lights on the highway were bright and we zoomed into the Pudong city center with the smoothness you can only associate with Western transit.

我们的司机举着醒目的名牌,一个会讲英语,彬彬有礼的年轻人。我们经由极棒的,流光溢彩的高速路抵达宾馆。因为有烟尘,看不到城市的景象,但沿着明亮的道路我们急速驶进了浦东的中心区,其平稳程度会让人觉得这是西方发达国家。

My lack of enthusiasm for the trip-to attend an Asian PR conference-was challenged by my two daughters who accompanied me. “Get over it, Dad. It’ll be great,” they chorused, brushing aside my concern about language and my Indian jaundiced eye. I was just 13 in 1962 when China delivered the knockout punch that sent the burgeoning republic of India into a tizzy from which it is still to recover.

对于此次亚洲公共关系(?恨各种缩写)会议,我本来缺乏兴趣,但陪伴我的2个女儿异口同声的叫着“去吧,会很棒的”,有意忽略我对语言的关心和患黄疸病的眼睛。62年我13岁,中国迅猛的一击将印度从顾盼自雄打落到惊慌失措,至今仍未走出阴影。

On my own, I would have checked into the hotel, attended the conference and done the regulatory sightseeing, eaten the standard five-star hotel food and come away marveling at the city with its colored-light modernity. With my daughters in attendance, we traipsed through the Huangpu and Xuhui districts and saw parts of the city that I probably would never have visited, especially when the day temperature was two degrees Celsius and windy.

如果是我自己,我应该住进宾馆,出席会议,然后参加 安排好的观光,品尝5星级酒店的美食,带着对这座绚烂的现代化都市的赞叹离开。 因为女儿们也在,我们漫步在黄埔和徐汇区,如果不是她们我可能永远不会到这些地方,更别提日间气温只有2℃,而且有风。

Shanghai is seared in my memory because of my daughters; the one is the mother of my precocious granddaughter; the other a New York sophisticate. They are so cool and so well-informed that I just let them take me here, there and everywhere. We walked through the old town, wandered through Xintiandi, the upscale part of the French Concession neighborhood that also boasts of the home of the suave Zhou Enlai (Chou En-lai), who served as the premier of China from 1949 t0 1976.

因为我的2个女儿:一个是略有早熟的外孙女的妈妈,另一个是见多识广的纽约客,上海得以深入脑海。她们很牛而且信息充足,我就让她们带着我四处游荡。我们去了老城区,徜徉在新天地,以前是法租界,旁边据称是周总理故居,周恩来在49-76年担任中国总理。

Zhou was the interlocutor for Jawaharlal Nehru at the Bandung Conference of 1955, in which the first principles of the Nonaligned Movement were articulated; a year before in Peking (now Beijing), Zhou signed with Nehru the Panchsheel Treaty, binding India and China to an agreement of peaceful coexistence.

周总理是55年万隆会议的参与者,那次会议缔造 了不结盟运动。54年周恩来和尼赫鲁在北京签署和平协议,确定中印和平共处。

As we walked through Xintiandi, I marveled at the restoration; here was a city that embraced it European heritage…so unlike any Indian city. My time in Shanghai was cut short because of a family emergency but we did get a chance to walk around People’s Square and take in the Bund, a gorgeous esplanade on the Huangpu River, with its barges and bridges.

From the Bund, you can see in shimmering watercolor impressionism, the high rises of Pudong, which my girls called the Gurgaon of Shanghai; looking to our back, we saw the traditional Tudor-style buildings, including the Waldorf Astoria Hotel, where we stopped to have afternoon tea.

在我们走过新天地时,我惊讶于古迹的修缮,这座城市包容了它的欧洲遗产, 不像印度的任何一座城市。因为家里急事我们的上海之行被迫缩短,但幸好我们有时间游览人民广场和外滩,这是黄埔江畔华丽的广场,江中游船往返,江上大桥横亘。从外滩看去,江中波光粼粼,我的女儿称为“上海Gurgaon ”(Gurgaon德里的卫星城 )的浦东遥遥矗立。往后看,传统的都铎建筑赫然在目,沃尔多夫 阿斯托里亚宾馆矗立其中,我们停下里在里面享用了下午茶。

We walked and walked, marveling at the sheer exuberance of street life even in the cold two-degree-Celsius weather. As we followed Nanjing Road to People’s Square, I kept thinking that the Bombay of the 1950s that I knew and loved could have become like this, except power-grubbing politicians, venal bureaucrats and apathetic citizens destroyed it and condemned it to be a slum.

我们走啊走,惊叹即使2℃ 低温也阻挡不了的热闹繁忙,从南京路到人民广场,我不停的在想如果不是无耻的政客,贪污的官僚,冷漠的居民将孟买毁成了一个大贫民窟,我深知并热爱的50年代的孟买也可成为这样。

Unlike any city in India, Shanghai seems to be livable for the average citizen; you can actually walk the streets, which you cannot in any Indian city; its riches seem to have been shared with the people. Roads, sidewalks, gardens, public art and mass transport; they have it all in spades; they also have preserved and enhanced their colonial heritage. “Inclusive growth” is not a slogan here; it’s real.

不像印度的任何一个城市,上海对普通市民来说是宜居的,你确确实实可以走在那些路上,在印度的任何城市都不可想象。这里的富人似乎在与普通人分享,道路,人行道,公园,公共艺术,交通。上海也保留了殖民时期的遗迹,“包容发展”在这里不仅仅是口号,它是实实在在的。

In the most superficial assessment, if one is to compare to Shanghai to Bombay (and frankly, there’s no comparison), it is clear that Shanghai is in a totally different league, comparable to Paris. Duh! It is called Paris of the East.

如果一个人比较上海和孟买(坦率的讲,根本没可比性),显而易见的,上海在完全不同的集团,它跟巴黎在一个档次,它被称为东方的巴黎。(巴黎变成西方的上海,我们就牛了)

Shanghai has almost 24 million people compared to Bombay’s 21 million. There can be no question that life seems to be hugely better in the Chinese city. These comparisons are impressionist, I grant you. There’s no mistaking, however, the dignity of common people and the preponderance of public goods. If Bombay is part of a democracy (and this is dubious, given the thugs of the Shiv Sena) and Shanghai of an authoritarian system, then without any survey or anything, just looking at the ground reality, I’d rather as an ordinary citizen be living in Shanghai.

上海2千4百万人口,孟买2千1百万 .毫无疑问,上海的生活优质的多,我承认这个比较完全基于直观印象。然而不会错的,普通人的尊严和公共设施的数量说明一切。就算孟买是皿煮的一部分(鉴于有像Shiv Sena 这样的暴徒,这点也是勉勉强强),而上海是集权体制,不需调查,只看看基本现实,我愿作为普通人生活在上海。

In the end, two things stood out. One, the Chinese political system, opaque though it is, seems to throw up decisive leaders, committed to enhancing the public interest. Two, the life of citizens seems to be light years ahead of the daily hassles, slum culture and criminal violence in Indian cities.

最后想说2点:1 中国政体虽然不透明,但貌似提供了强有力的领导人,为提供公共利益而努力; 2. 市民的生活比吵吵闹闹,充斥着贫民窟和暴力犯罪的印度城市好上几万倍。

As for the race between India and China, I am saddened to report India never even made it to the starting line. It is very likely, as a friend told me, that India is to China as Mexico is to the United States.

至于中印之争,我只能无奈的说印度从来没站到过 起跑线上。就像一个朋友告诉我的,印度于中国就像墨西哥之于美国。

以下是读者评论:

译者:whiteeagle
来源:三泰虎论坛 http://bbs.santaihu.com/thread-7808-1-1.html

Wadhwani (India)says:

I would put the differences in one line: We Indians are probably the best abusers of democracy while the Chinese have proved their sincere dedication and nationalism to truly develop their country. Indian leaders are experts in fooling public with unrealistic statements like “We will make Mumbai like Shanghai” which will possibly never come true, atleast during our lifetime.

我把差异归结为:我们印度人可能是最好的滥用皿煮者,在中国,他们的真诚奉献和民族主义在真正发展自己的国家。印度领导人是欺骗公众的专家,他们不切实际的声明“我们将使孟买像上海“,这将可能永远不会成真,至少在我们的有生之年不会。

Diptendu Chakraborty (Toronto)says:

I was too visiting China last year for a month. From Beijing on the way to Shanghai I visited many cities and took a long 300 km rides on Yangsee river. Yes now China can be compared with US cities but the story behind it is horrific. Chinese Communist dictators have shifted people in millions from their homes to another places unknown. To make Beijing Olympic compund lacs and lacs people were uprooted and moved somewhere no one knows. Torture on people, no free speech or no criticism is the norm in China. I did not see any poor people on the main city as they are now living in restricted areas. I went to Hutan where ordinary people live out side of Beijing. Rikswa pullars, street tea shops, street beggars are there. They go to work in the city but has to come back to live here. China Govt. is dumping goods all over the world by bonded labours who live and eat in the same factories just like our bonded labours in tea garden or cotton mills. The goods they make are subsidised by the Govt. They sell an unit for half a price even the production cost is more than they sell. We the naive blind people dance in their prosperity which is nothing but a barbarian regime like any Communist country. In India we still allow communist Party who have killed and raped thousands in Kerala and Bengal. Sorry, development does not necessarily mean killing millions to become a strong country.

(这才是A3该有的节奏嘛,不造造谣,不祭出皿煮大杀器叫神马开挂3嘛)
我去年也在中国旅行过一个月,从北京到上海,游览了很多城市。现在中国可以媲美美国,但背后的故事很恐怖滴(忽悠开始,我感觉忽悠的节奏都千遍一律),中共的独裁者把数以百万的人从家乡转移到不知名的地区。为了北京奥运会,他们把人举家迁走。拷问人们,没有演讲自由,不能批评是常态。我没看到任何穷人,因为他们都被放在限制区。我去了hutan(真心觉得这孙子瞎编个名)见了生活在北京外的人, 人力车夫,街边茶店,讨饭的随处可见(这SB绝对按照A3自己城市胡诌,现在人力车夫可是稀罕物件了吧)。他们进城工作但必须回到这里居住。中国倾销商品因为可以剥削劳动力,他们的可怜工人像我们茶园和棉花地的工人一样惨。他们甚至以低于成本的价格销售商品。我们还为了他们的繁荣喝彩,他们就是一个野蛮的共产国家。在印度我们依然容忍gcd,他们已经在克拉拉和西孟邦杀了数千人。发展不是以杀百万人为代价成为一个发达国家。

(我认为这绝对是一个模板)

Mayur(Mumbai)

Its just sixty four years that we have been independent and during these years we have definitely made signifiacant developements all most in all spheres. India unlike China or US is a vast and diverse country , where hundreds of kinds of religion are practised, where double the number of that, langauges are spoken.Such diversity is not be seen in any developed country. But yes , to improve , lessons are to be learnt and decisions are to be implemented

印度独立了64年,有了长足发展。印度不像中美,它是个复杂的国家,上百种宗教,更多种的语言,这种多样性在任何一个发达国家也没有,如果要改善,我们必须学习并执行。

友荐云推荐
  1. 有一点三哥至今没有搞清楚:那就是政府应该负担相当数量的公共服务,比如说公路,铁路,供水,供电等。在美国,公共服务有很多私人机构参与(大多是有利润的部分),但是,主体部分还是政府解决的。在中国大学课程中西方经济学(宏观)中也提到了政府角色的定位。三哥认为私营企业有效,所以就应该有他们负责公共服务,这一点是违背大多数国家的经济规律的;因为,很多公共服务是没有利润但又不得不做的。
    另外,国家作为一个基本经济单元,毫无疑问,掌握着许多天然的经济资源(土地,劳动力,税收等);但是,只有高效的政府才能用好这些资源。当这些资源无法被很好得使用时,好的结果是浪费,坏的结果就是变成社会和政府的负担,比如说,劳动力。以现在三哥年轻的社会结构(20+岁),20-30年之后,这些人因为养老变成巨大的社会负担,到时候,甚至可能引发社会悲剧。

    • 同意你的观点,个人认为印度社会现在正好处在类似中国上世纪八十年代末九十年代初那时候——市场巨大刚被开发,民众收入逐步提高,民族主义意识抬头,但政府职能急需改变的阶段。那时候中国抓住了苏联解体时代的低油价、低自然资源价格、信息网络化刚起步的时代,而且利用亚洲金融危机前的经济热潮迅速完成这一阶段的转型。但是,我悲观的认为现在的发展机遇已经没有多少留给印度了,印度现在才开始发力不当没有了低油价,低自然资源时代,信息网络化也没有让印度有多少受益,最崩溃的是印度要面对一个还未完全转型成发达国家——中国的竞争。当然中国也不是高枕无忧,现在都说改革进入深水区,接下去中国也将遇到更大更多的困难。

      • 也许印度有他自己的速度吧~个人认为即使印度类似蜗牛,他也迟早会到达他想要的站点~不过需要的时间永远不会为人所知。相对而言,目前中国面对的发展环境好像比之印度险峻多了,周边恶狼虎视眈眈!印度则左右逢源。也许印度会有幸见证一场新生超级国家的出壳之战!~

        • 我觉得印度左右逢源真不是好事,多难兴邦有忽悠的成分,但也不是没有道理,哪个国家真要牛,一步一步的挣扎斗争都不可避免。低油价,低资源这个说法我同意,当时我们获得了资源,还有大量的技术,尤其军工技术,这是可遇不可求的。我一直认为中国对比印度的优势在文化内涵,中国的文化一直是向上的,虽然我们有点一切向钱看,但整个社会是前进的。印度印度等级森严,下层人没有改变命运的机会,那当然也就不会努力,这些人对社会就毫无贡献可言。

      • 另外,我认为你说的中国在那时抓住什么低油价,低资源而使经济腾飞不太符合事实。要这样的话,那时和中国一起腾飞的国家应该很多。而俄罗斯更应该要赶在中国前头才对。即使过去不行,现在也应该要有迎头赶上的气势才对。但看看就发现什么低油价低资源都不是主因~个人认为经济发展类似于使水道(经济)怎么才使之顺畅,方法(政策)用的对,尽量不添堵(各种人为的倒行逆施),尽量疏通(各种创新,迎合经济发展规律),勤劳。这些措施到位经济就能腾飞了。如果方法更对,思维更敏捷,即使现在高油价,也有经济快速增长的可能。那就看智识有多高明了…

        • 当时的低油价与苏联的崩溃有直接原因,俄罗斯要是发展起来了哪还有低油价,这所谓夜长梦多,把发展时间拉的越长,打断发展的可能也就越多,绝大多数的蜗牛在到达目的地之前就死了,速度越慢,到达目的地的可能也就越低

    • 百度印度吧里有一个奇葩号称“印度识字的少,所以工人多,工人多这个国家发展的就快。印度是一个人口大国,如果说文盲多的话,那体力活的工人自然也就多,形成的发展速度自然也就快。”人家可是标准5卢比100%否认知识决定劳动力素质的哦!

      • 某些劳动密集型轻工业是可以利用文盲的,但咱也走过几亿双袜子换灰鸡的阶段,真心没啥值得挽留的。这样的低端产业,三锅要就给三锅去吧

        • 三哥10点上班,11点午饭,下午2点下午茶,5点。。。下班啦。。。生产袜子。。。水,电(一周停3天加108小时)。。。算了吧。。。你还是让他晒太阳乞讨吧(起码很环保)。。。就别糟蹋地球资源了。。。 :mrgreen:

          • 孟加拉妹纸挺苦逼的啊,前阵子一栋占地100来平的8层楼作坊着了火就死了千号人。所以只要鞭子抽得够狠,三锅三妹还是肯乖乖的干活的

        • 劳动密集型企业还是要的,那解决了很大很大一部分的就业压力。如果没有劳动密集型企业,失业人员很多,对社会稳定是有极大影响的。

      • 三哥牺牲了自己,成全我们。。。给我们带来欢乐。。。这是多麽伟大的牺牲我一个幸福千万人的助人为乐精神啊。。。这是多麽伟大的人类大团结精神啊。。。向三哥致以最最崇高的敬礼。。。 :mrgreen:

  2. 北京有人力车夫,集中在某些景区,古老的胡同等地方。价格好像不算便宜。5环以外的地铁和公交站附近,有很多小奔奔,就是很小的小三轮拉客,有外地的是专业的,也有本地人下班以后当副业。

  3. this city was born global and has embraced, unlike Bombay, its international heritage
    这个城市生来就是全球化的。不像孟买,它很好的继承了以往的国际化的遗产
    这个遗产是说上海以前的十里洋场吧

    • 虎哥也是人类。。。要生活的。。。我们没有理由要求他奉献全部。。。虎哥。。。你只要做就好。。。多少我不在乎。。。祝生活顺利。。。 :mrgreen:

  4. Diptendu Chakraborty (Toronto)says:

    I was too visiting China last year for a month. From Beijing on the way to Shanghai I visited many cities and took a long 300 km rides on Yangsee river. Yes now China can be compared with US cities but the story behind it is horrific. Chinese Communist dictators have shifted people in millions from their homes to another places unknown. To make Beijing Olympic compund lacs and lacs people were uprooted and moved somewhere no one knows. Torture on people, no free speech or no criticism is the norm in China. I did not see any poor people on the main city as they are now living in restricted areas. I went to Hutan where ordinary people live out side of Beijing. Rikswa pullars, street tea shops, street beggars are there. They go to work in the city but has to come back to live here. China Govt. is dumping goods all over the world by bonded labours who live and eat in the same factories just like our bonded labours in tea garden or cotton mills. The goods they make are subsidised by the Govt. They sell an unit for half a price even the production cost is more than they sell. We the naive blind people dance in their prosperity which is nothing but a barbarian regime like any Communist country. In India we still allow communist Party who have killed and raped thousands in Kerala and Bengal. Sorry, development does not necessarily mean killing millions to become a strong country.

    (这才是A3该有的节奏嘛,不造造谣,不祭出皿煮大杀器叫神马开挂3嘛)
    我去年也在中国旅行过一个月,从北京到上海,游览了很多城市。现在中国可以媲美美国,但背后的故事很恐怖滴(忽悠开始,我感觉忽悠的节奏都千遍一律),中共的独裁者把数以百万的人从家乡转移到不知名的地区。为了北京奥运会,他们把人举家迁走。拷问人们,没有演讲自由,不能批评是常态。我没看到任何穷人,因为他们都被放在限制区。我去了hutan(真心觉得这孙子瞎编个名)见了生活在北京外的人, 人力车夫,街边茶店,讨饭的随处可见(这SB绝对按照A3自己城市胡诌,现在人力车夫可是稀罕物件了吧)。他们进城工作但必须回到这里居住。中国倾销商品因为可以剥削劳动力,他们的可怜工人像我们茶园和棉花地的工人一样惨。他们甚至以低于成本的价格销售商品。我们还为了他们的繁荣喝彩,他们就是一个野蛮的共产国家。在印度我们依然容忍gcd,他们已经在克拉拉和西孟邦杀了数千人。发展不是以杀百万人为代价成为一个发达国家。

    (我认为这绝对是一个模板)
    ——————————————————————————希望三锅们都有这么高的IQ…..

  5. 加拿大Pyle两兄弟驾乘摩托车逛遍中国和印度,对比中国和印度,他们的原话是:China is 50 years ahead of India, easily.
    请看优酷视频:http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjA0NjczMTAw.html,从40分钟开始对比中印,68分钟开始吐槽印度糟糕的基础设施和恐怖的饮食卫生。

  6. 感谢翻译!不过有些不正确,举两个例子:

    【this city was born global and has embraced, unlike Bombay, its international heritage.

    上海具有与生俱来的全球化和包容性,不像孟买,是一个国际遗产。(最后一句求指正)】

    应该是:【不像孟买,上海…欣然接受了它的国际传承。】
    ==========================================================
    the security men were real, not guys scratching their privates.

    【安保人员是真正负责的,不是搜刮手下的家伙】

    应该是:【安保人员是…,而不是(像印度那些)一直在他们自己私处抓痒的(肮脏)家伙。

    希望译者不介意。

    • private这个词比较蛋疼,有可能是大兵,也可能是隐私,也可能是隐私处,所以得适应下洋彪子的思维方式才能理解得上来

    • 多谢多谢,还有这句“get the sense of desolate grandeur and last-mile incompetence that you see at Delhi’s T3 white-elephant terminal” 尤其是“last-mile incompetence”也没搞懂。感觉英语有时候词都懂,意思不知道。

  7. 至于中印之争,我只能无奈的说印度从来没站到过 起跑线上。就像一个朋友告诉我的,印度于中国就像墨西哥之于美国。——-这说过了,阿三有黑蛋

  8. 同意这个,中国是靠建国后的各种运动(包括文革)来打乱等级的,这些其实对目前中国的经济发展有正向作用。印度的种姓,大量文盲,没有统一语言,制度的低效率等都是阻碍。