三泰虎

印度光辉战机真的很垃圾吗

Is HAL Tejas really a junk fighter aircraft?

印度斯坦航空公司的光辉战机真的很垃圾吗?

 Quora读者的评论:

Rahul .Gokhale

Whether it is junk or not depends largely on how you define junk. For e.g. if a good fighter to you means, the SU 30MKI, or the Rafale or the EF Typhoon then yes compared to those, Tejas falls significantly short on virtually all parameters and it is indeed junk. If by a good aircraft you mean something that can replace the ageing MIG 21 fleet and the capabilities of that aircraft and provide a support role for IAF’s front line jets then no, Tejas is more than capable of fulfilling that role.

The important point to note is that Tejas is not a product but rather a process. The real question we need to ask is whether its really indigenous and to that my answer is no. Virtually most critical systems are imported and India needs to work on developing these regardless if that means reinventing the wheel.

My personal opinion is HAL ran into a lot of problems because Kaveri engine was a failure and the plane was designed for that engine. Ideally such an important and critical component should have been outsourced and focus should have been on developing other subsystems around the engine. If i had any control of the process, 1) i would privatize and distribute development across the nation rather than relying solely on HAL, and more importantly, 2) hire russian designers at exorbitant pay scales to speed up development. HAL on its own just doesnt inspire much confidence.

它是不是垃圾在很大程度上取决于你如何定义。如果在你看来,好的战斗机就是苏30MKI,或阵风或EF台风,那么没错,与这些战斗机相比,光辉战机在几乎所有的参数上都明显不足,确实是垃圾。如果你所说的好飞机是指能够取代老旧的米格21机群,并为印度空军的前线飞机提供支持,那么光辉战机完全有能力履行好这一角色。

需要注意的重要一点是,光辉战机不是一个产品,而是一个加工品。我们真正需要问的是它是否真的是本土飞机,对此我的回答是否定的。实际上,其大多数关键系统都是进口的,印度需要努力开发这些系统,无论是否需要从头开始。

我个人的看法是,印度斯坦航空遇到了很多问题,因为卡维里引擎出了故障,而飞机就是为这个引擎而设计的。理想情况下,这样一个重要且关键的组件应该被外包出去,重点应该放在围绕引擎开发其他子系统上。如果让我来主导这个项目,1)我会将项目发放给私营企业,并在全国范围内择优合作,而不是仅仅依赖印度斯坦航空,更重要的是,我会以极高的薪资水平聘用俄罗斯设计师来加速研发进度。

 

Mubashar Fiaz, Aviation Enthusiast & Military Buff

Not entirely but its combat radius is too low need refueling after every 40 mins low thrust to weight ratio, inferior ferry range. But the actual tragedy is that it is too expensive for air forces which want to replace their previous generation obsolete fighter like F 4, Mig 21, F 5, F 15 etc, would be a nightmare. Although it has good avionics in MK 1 would be made better and upcoming MK 1A and MK 2 but their entry in international market will be too late, till that air forces will be relying on cheap but good fighters like its biggest competitor Jf 17 Thunder block 2 and upcoming block 3. MK 1 has a bit higher price and according to Wikipedia MK1 A will cost about 63 million dollars higher then Gripen E, well, JF 17 block 3 will cost half of it about 32 million. So, it will be better for those airforces to procure JF 17 block 3 to build up their numbers. And MK 1 of tejas did meet its projected time about 2017 and now is 2019.

Into simpler words we can classify tejas as;

“a good aircraft but too expensive and particularly too late to grasp muli billion dollars market of lightweight single engine aircraft.”

译文来源:三泰虎 http://www.santaihu.com/47808.html 

不完全是,但它的战斗半径太低了,每40分钟需要加油一次,推力重量比低,射程较短。但真正的悲剧是,对于空军来说,它太昂贵了,他们想要更换掉上一代过时的战斗机,如f4、Mig 21、f5、f15等,会是一场噩梦。虽然光辉战机配置了MK1上优秀的航空电子设备,可以超过MK 1A和MK 2,但他们进入国际市场的时间太迟了。MK1的价格稍高一些,根据维基百科MK1 A比鹰狮E贵6300万美元,JF 17 block 3只需一半的价格,约3200万美元。所以,对空军来说,最好是采购JF 17 block 3来增加他们的战斗机数量。光辉战机的MK 1预计投放市场的时间是2017年左右,但现在已经2019年了。

我们可以用更简单的描述来形容光辉战机;

“飞机是好飞机,但造价太高,又太迟推出,无法拿下数十亿美元的轻型单引擎飞机市场。”

 

Arnab Kumar Chatterjee, studied at Rkmv,, Belur

Let's put things in perspective.there are many light fighter in world. Pakistan inducted JF17.

让我们换个角度看问题。世界上有许多轻型战斗机。巴基斯坦的JF17。

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Korean Inducted their FA50.

韩国的FA50.

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Both vastly inferior to Tejas….

都不如光辉战机。

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Tejas can do everything that a 4.5gen fighter can. Only differences are that it has less payload capacity , lower TWR a(still above 1), lower combat radius, lesser numbers.but these are only limited to first 20. SP20 onwards it will have refuelling probe. Mk1a will have EW, higher payload,more space for internal fuel, better service and maintenance records, more manuals, more Assembly lines.and also an AESA Radar.thus it will effectively be in the leagues of gripen C or D.

光辉战机可以完成4.5代战斗机能完成的一切。唯一的区别是它的有效载荷能力更低,推力-重量比更低(仍然高于1),战斗半径更低,数量更少。但这仅限于前20架。SP20以后将增配加油探头。Mk1A将有电子战系统,实现更高的载荷,更多的内部燃料空间,更好的服务和维护记录,更多的操作键盘,更多的装配线。另外,还有AESA雷达。

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If anybody thinks that's junk, …..,they are handsomely being paid by uncle Sam for sure,…and that includes the armchair defence experts in media, and also the various defence forums in the internet who have no knowledge about military hardware and technology.

如果有人认为那是垃圾…他们肯定是山姆大叔聘请的五毛党,这其中包括纸上谈兵的媒体防务专家,以及对军事硬件和技术一无所知的互联网防务论坛。

 

Anandh Krishna

Originally Answered: Is India's LCA Tejas fighter jet a failure?

No. Its not..

You’ll get a lot tech based answers so i’ll stick to other things..

Even if that thing never took off from the ground it would’ve been a success.

India built key technologies during the development of this aircraft. Designed and manufactured a modern fighter jet.

The experience alone makes it worth while. Established a production line.. now they are bringing private companies in to the mix, to make it faster.. better and more domestic.. this will help private and public companies alike.. and keep the money inside India. These companies will also gain experience in manufacturing of aeronautical technologies and equipment. In the future they will set up there own research facilities (some of them already did) and develop technology.. which will create a healthy Defense Industry, which is very important for a large military like India’s.

So.. Even if that thing never took off from the ground it would’ve been a success.

最初的问题是:印度的光辉战斗机失败了吗?

不。不是. .

你会看到很多基于技术的回答,所以我会从其他方面说一说。

即使那飞机永远都无法从地面起飞,它也是成功的。

印度在这架飞机的研发过程中掌握了关键技术。设计和制造了一架现代战斗机。

这段经历本身就很值得。建立了一条生产线。现在他们把私营公司也纳入进来,让研发进程更快,更好,更本土化…这将对私营企业和上市公司都有帮助。能把钱留在印度。这些公司还将获得航空技术和设备制造方面的经验。将来他们将建立自己的研究设施(其中一些已经这么做了)并研发技术。这将打造一个健康的国防工业,这对像印度这样的大型军队来说非常重要。

所以. .即使那东西没有从地面起飞,也是成功的。

 

Anil Mishra, former Specialist in Multi Layer Missile &Radar Defence

Originally Answered: Is India's LCA Tejas fighter jet a failure?

No, It can not be said to be a failure. This project is basically for technology demonstration . Things will improve as new Squadrons are introduced. As of now the fighter seems to be decent in its role of interceptor. Amount of research needed and improvements incorporated in any new project of this magnitude need time and lot of efforts . We will make it even better in due course of time. We have everything but more funds are required to realize drawing board's wonders. Why this perception is allowed to develop in public is beyond my understanding. Make in India will help the project in coming decades. India is launching itself in a big way in weapon manufacturing involving missiles, fighter jets , SAMs, helicopters , artillery guns of more than 150mm and armored carriers etc. Let us support it and not loose heart by few adverse reviews by some people probably with vested interest. Jai hind.

最初的问题是:印度的光辉战斗机失败了吗?

不,这不能说是失败。这个项目主要用于技术论证。随着新的战斗机中队的加入,情况会有所改善。到目前为止,这架战斗机似乎还能胜任拦截机的角色。任何这种规模的新项目都需要大量的研究和改进,需要花费大量的时间和努力。我们拥有一切,但需要更多的资金来实现奇迹。我无法理解为什么会在公共场合发表这种看法。“印度制造”将在未来几十年帮助该项目取得进展。印度在导弹、战斗机、地对空导弹、直升机、150毫米口径火炮、装甲运兵车等武器制造领域取得了长足发展。我们要支持它,不要因为一些可能与既得利益有关的人很少发表负面评论而丧失信心。印度必胜。

 

Sameer Verma, Equal Partner (2017-present)

Originally Answered: Is India's LCA Tejas fighter jet a failure?

Compared to?

Understand the philosophy of fighter requirements first…

The govt and Airforce wanted a homegrown fighter as part of our defence requirements and national tech building agenda…

It was understood from day one that the Mig 21, 23, 27 will eventually live out their usefulness like any other tech in ones life….

So began the design and manufacture of a worthy replacement of these migs from scratch….

If u can ignore the hysteria of the time line and supposedly delays associated with the LCA u will realize that this fighter with its original kaveri engine was far superior to the Mig 21 series as well as jaguars…which was and still is the main fighter in numbers…

By the time the first LCA flew after delays in funds, sanctions etc…it surpassed all the requirements it was initially tasked with….doesnt matter how much of it is imported components…that was and is being tackled as a separate project with results frutifying…

最初的问题是:印度的光辉战斗机失败了吗?

跟谁相比?

首先要理解战斗机需求的哲学。

政府和空军想要国产战斗机作为我们国防需求和国家科技建设的一部分。

从第一天起,人们就知道,米格21、23、27最终会像人们生活中的任何其他技术一样发挥作用。

因此我们需要从零开始设计和制造一种有价值的替代品…

如果你可以忽略光辉战机漫长的研发时间和延迟,你会意识到,这个配置了卡维里引擎的战斗机远远优于米格21系列和美洲虎…这仍然是主要的战斗机机型…

当第一架光辉战机在经历资金、制裁等因素导致的延误后真正起飞时,它已经超出了最初的所有要求。不管有多少组件是进口的,这是一个独立的项目,硕果累累…

The Airforce will always have 3 teirs of ops…

1.defence and short range offense and defence of border and army and naval ops..conventional and non nuclear warfare

2.Medium range ops going deeper and wider opa against strategic targets of the enemy..conventional and nuclear if needed

3.Long range offensive ops really deep into enemy territory…conventional and nuclear

For the first category right now mig 21s, mig 29s, jags and mirage 2000s…with the gauranteed phasing out of these series in the next decade or so the lca was and is a perfect replacement…and research and upgrades would have been a part and parcel of this deal…

not the fault of drdo and other labs if they were not funded and supported well in time to adpat to the changes needed by the airforce and govt…and yet need their backsides kicked for not performing as desired….both are fault in their own ways… .

空军一直有3个目标…

1.防御和近距进攻,防御边境和陆海军的常规作战和非核战争

2.如果需要,对敌人战略目标进行更深入、更广泛的中程常规作战和非核战争

3.远程攻击、深入敌人领土的常规作战和非核战争

对于目前的第一梯队的米格21,米格29,jags和幻影2000…随着未来10年左右这些系列逐步被淘汰,光辉战机会是完美的替代品…研发和升级将是重要的组成部分…

这不是国防研究所和其他实验室的错,如果他们没能及时得到资金和支持来适应空军和政府所需要的变化,就不能因为没有达到预期效果而被唾弃……他们都各有责任。

 

Jitendra Jha, studied at Kendriya Vidyalaya No. 3, New Delhi

Not a junk

Equipped with a modern Israeli multi-mode radar, the Elta 2032, state-of-the-art Derby air-to-air missiles to attack enemy jets, and modern laser designator and targeting pods to hit ground targets

The aircraft is fitted with a night vision compatible glass cockpit with Martin Baker (UK) zero-zero ejection seats.

The aircraft’s structure is composed of 42% carbon fibre composites, 43% aluminium alloy and the remainder titanium alloy.

The aircraft can travel at a maximum speed of 2,205 km/hr for FOC version and 2,000 km/hr for IOC version.

不是垃圾

光辉战机装备了现代以色列多模雷达,Elta 2032,最先进的德比空对空导弹来攻击敌军的飞机,还有现代激光指示器和目标舱能打击地面目标

飞机配备了夜视兼容玻璃驾驶舱与马丁贝克(英国)zero-zero弹射座椅。

飞机的机身由42%的碳纤维复合材料、43%的铝合金和其余的钛合金组成。

飞机的最大速度为2205公里/小时,FOC版本和IOC版本分别为2000公里/小时。

 

Himanshu Pattanayak, studied at Dr. B. R. Ambedkar National Institute of Technology, Jalandhar

LCA is neither the best aircraft nor it is a junk. it’s a reasonably good aircraft for our needs. It is light weight multi role aircraft which do various tasks such as intercept, ground attack and air superiority up to some extent. Naval version of the aircraft is also being developed. It’s a 4.5 generation aircraft with all the Morden technology that a 4.5 generation should aircraft possess, specially the Mk1A. It has got newer technologies like AESA radar, mid air refueling capability, fly by wire, BVR capability. The aircraft is designed for low operational and maintenance cost and suits to our requirements. It’s has high percentage of composite carbon materials which make is lighter and agile. Since it is not a foreign aircraft we can install our own weapons. The aircraft has created a aerospace manufacturing base in India.

光辉战机不是最好的飞机,但也不是垃圾。对我们的需求来说,这是一架相当不错的飞机。它是一种轻型多用途飞机,能在一定程度上完成拦截、地面攻击和空中优势等多种任务。海军版本的飞机也正在研发中。这是一架4.5代飞机,特别是Mk1A,拥有4.5代飞机应该具备的所有现代技术。它拥有更先进的技术,如AESA雷达,空中加油能力,有线飞行,BVR能力。这架飞机是为低成本操作和维护而设计的,符合我们的要求。它含有高比例的复合碳材料,使其更轻、更灵活。因为它不是外国飞机,我们可以安装我们自己的武器。这架飞机在印度建立了一个飞机制造基地。

 

Deepak Kumar

TEJAS is a good fighter plane and in coming years it would be great after lot of enhancements.

remember even US/russian fighters lot of models lot of problems were there.

lot of problems were solved in upgrades.

all major fighter producing companies took not less than 35–40 years to produce a good model.

so lets give time to our tejas to settle down

problem is our forces keep changing specs dailly.

first they want single engine then twin engine, then mmra model, then aircraft carrier version, it should climb everest and so on.

you cannot have everything in one version.

this fighter was designed to replace mig-21 lower end fighters

光辉战机是很好的战斗机,在未来的几年里,经过大量改进,它会变得很棒。

记住,即便是美国/俄罗斯的战斗机,也有很多型号,很多问题。

通过升级,可以解决很多问题。

所有主流战斗机生产公司都花了35-40年的时间才能生产出一种好的战斗机型号。

所以我们给光辉战机一点时间吧

问题是我们的部队每天都在改变规格要求。

一开始他们想要单引擎,然后改成双引擎,然后变成mmra模型,然后又变成航空母舰版本,还要求它能飞越珠穆朗玛峰等等。

你不可能把所有的东西都放在一个版本里解决了。

这种战斗机是用来取代米格-21的低端战斗机。

 

Satheesh Narayanan, Logical thinker without taking any stances

Yes it's a Junk to a Dumb Head

An advice to those who think it's a Junk is “Just grow up people”.

There is no point in comparing Tejas with F16 or something. The sane way is to compare it with its own intended purpose of Design. Simple example is when you are start designing with an intension of transporting atleast 7 people with a budget of less than 7 lakhs then the out come would be Maruti EECO or at max Ertiga. Even after achieving Ertiga standard people comparing it with Innova or Tavera is shear stupidity..!!

Either your base design should be increased or stop comparing it..,

是的,对一个傻瓜来说,这就是垃圾

我要给那些认为它是垃圾的人一个建议:“成熟点吧”。

把光辉战机和F16之类的作比较是没有意义的。明智的方法是将其与设计的预期目的进行比较。简单的例子是,当你开始设计时,你的目标是用少于70万卢比的预算运送至少7个人,那么最终的结果将是玛鲁蒂汽车 EECO或max Ertiga。

要么提高基础设计,要么不要比较。

 

Radhakrishnan V Nair, Consultant at Archaid Architects, Bangalore (1994-present)

It is not a junk fighter, but merely a platform on which a lot of add ons need to be built. That, if it happens, will take a couple of decades and may still fall short of current equivalents. Therefore, without discounting indegeneous efforts, we need to move on a parallel where a quantum leap is necessary. We dont have to discount HAL’s efforts when we accept the facts of a PSU undertaking which may not mive at the speed the times demand! The HAL has a lot of flab like other PSUs and it is very hard for it to trim it and become lean, hungry snd efficient just like other simil set ups like BSNL and AIR- INDIA. Like someone said, it is not the grace of the elephant’s dance but the fact that the elephant can dance at all that we need to appreciate!

它不是垃圾战斗机,而只是一个平台,在这个平台上需要建立许多附加组件。如果这种情况真的发生,那将需要几十年的时间,而且可能仍达不到目前的水平。因此,在不考虑自身努力的前提下,我们需要沿着一条需要量子跃迁的平行轨道前进。当我们接受一个可能无法以时代要求的速度完成的任务时,我们不必低估印度斯坦航空的努力!就像有人说的,我们需要欣赏的不是大象跳舞的优雅,而是大象会跳舞就足够了!

 

Rohit Banerjee, 9 years of part time defence analysis.

Yes indeed a really junk fighter, just like the other 4.5th gen junk fighters like Eurofighter Typhoons, Dassault Rafales, Su-30MKI, Gripen ,etc.

是的,这确实是一架真正的垃圾战斗机,就像其他4.5代垃圾战斗机一样,如欧洲台风战斗机、达索阵风战斗机、苏- 30mki、鹰狮战斗机等。

 

Sauro Dasgupta, YouTuber (2018-present)

It’s brilliant.

A 4.5–5th generation aircraft.

光辉战机超级棒。

它是4.5 - 5代飞机。

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