三泰虎

印度为什么不会自己造战机和武器,印网友:我们造了阿琼坦克

Why can't India make indigenous fighter jets and wons?(3)

为什么印度自己不会造国产战斗机和武器?(3)

印度阿琼坦克

 Quora读者的评论:

Anonymous

Because one time we tried to build on our own, we ended up with Arjun main battle tank. Development started in 1974, prototype built in 1984, initial pre-production of 14 tanks in 1988. During the testing, the performance was so poor, the Army ordered improvements. Despite several attempts to kill the project, higher ups kept the project alive, after spending 20 times the original budget and almost 20 years behind plan, the first production Arjun tanks rolled off the assembly in 1999. But, further delays were caused by production issues and the tanks weren't fully deployed until 2009. The total production is 248 tanks. Because of the delays, Indian Army's current main battle tank is T-90S. Although, Arjun Mk2 program was much more successful, the original Arjun program disaster should be enough to pause anyone that thinks domestic production is always best.

我们尝试过自己建造,成果是阿尔琼主战坦克。坦克的研发始于1974年,原型建造于1984年,最初在1988年小批量生产14辆坦克。在测试期间,性能非常差,军队下令改进。尽管有几次试图终止该项目,但在花费了比原预算多20倍的资金、且比原计划落后近20年之后,仍维持了该项目的存续。但是,生产问题导致了进一步的延迟,直到2009年坦克才得以全部部署,总产量248台。由于延期,印度陆军目前的主战坦克是T-90。尽管Arjun Mk2项目成功得多,但Arjun项目最初的灾难应该足以让所有认为国产最好的人闭嘴。

 

Akhil T Rn, Rockstar! Cleverly disguised as an Engineer :P

There are several reasons for this...

  1. The time involved in develo a technology for the defence is very high especially due to the procedures involved. So in many cases it is better to go for a Foreign procurement as the deal would be completed much faster.
  2. Defense deals involve a lot of money. Our po iticians and beaurocrats are so corrupt that even if the technology is available or could be developed within the country, they lobby for foreign companies. Take for example the case of IAFs Turbo-trainer aircraft deal with Pilatus. Though the country's biggest aerospace company HAL proposed to develop an indegenous aircraft, the HTT40, IAF went for a procurement deal with Pilatus. The point of irony in this case was that the cost of an indegenously developed HTT40 aircraft would have been much less than that of the Pilatus aircraft.

有以下几个原因…

1. 研发一种国防技术需要的时间非常长。因此在许多情况下最好进行海外采购,交易完成的速度会快得多。

2. 国防交易耗资巨大。我们的政客和非常腐败,就算国内有可用的技术或可以自助研发,他们也会为外国公司游说。以印度空军涡轮教练机交易为例。尽管印度最大的航空公司印度斯坦航空提议开发一种名为HTT40的国产飞机,但印度空军还是与皮拉特斯达成了一项采购协议。具有讽刺意味的是,自主研发的HTT40飞机的成本比皮拉特斯飞机要低得多。

 

Rehaan Chaudhary, studied at Manav Rachna International School

Originally Answered: Why is India unable to build their own fighter jets?

India is one of the few nations who actually are capable of building however the fighters are not as good as f22s or su35s but still they are awesome.

So far India has made 3 aircrafts

1)HAL HF-24 Marut

最初的问题是:为什么印度自己不会造战斗机?

印度是少数几个真正有能力建造战斗机的国家之一,只是比不上F22或SU35而已,但仍然很厉害。

到目前为止,印度已经制造了3架飞机

1)印度斯坦航空的HF-24 Marut

印度斯坦航空的HF-24 Marut
 

It was made in 1960s and was comparable with the best aircrafts but due to some zing statesmen we had to drop it.

它是在20世纪60年代制造的,当时可跟最好的飞机媲美,但由于某些政治家,我们不得不放弃它。

2)HAL Ajeet

2)印度斯坦航空的Ajeet

印度斯坦航空的Ajeet
 

It was a decent aircraft made in 1977

这是1977年制造的一架不错的飞机

3)HAL Tejas

3) 印度斯坦航空的光辉战机
 

印度光辉战机

It is a pretty stealthy aircraft due to the use of composites and has various models

这是一架相当隐形的飞机,因为使用了复合材料,拥有多种原型机

1)Tejas Mk1

2)Tejas mk1a

And the other one for aircraft carriers

By 2032 India we will get a 5++ generation aircraft

HAL AMCA

1)光辉Mk1

2)光辉Mk1a

还有一种可用于航空母舰上

到2032年,印度将拥有一架5+代飞机

印度斯坦航空的AMCA

印度斯坦航空的AMCA
 

 

Thanks

谢谢。

 

Sr Rehman Patel, lived in India

The level of technical expertise one is required to make wons is extremely high. India, does posses this ability but not the ability to reproduce these on a large scale.

Also, I think that importing these goods from US/ Israel might be financially speaking , more economical than say, setting up our own industries.

Setting our own industries for wons in a resource starved nation like ours also opens up avenues for illegal disbursement of blue-sheets and black market wons.

We do construct our ships and aircrafts at HAL. Most of the very cutting edge technology has been patented by private defense contractors and industries in the aforementioned countries. And as this is a sensitive topic of defense, the go nments behind these organizations defend their patents furiously, so one has to buy it through, if one wants to use it.

And was the biggest importer of wons, my friend, till a few years ago.

译文来源:三泰虎 http://www.santaihu.com/47469.html  译者:Joyceliu

制造武器所需要的专门技术水平是非常高的。印度拥有这种能力,但没有能力大规模复制。

此外,我认为从美国/以色列进口这些商品可能比建立我们自己的工业更经济划算。

在我们这样一个资源匮乏的国家建立自己的武器工业,也会为非法发放蓝皮书和黑市武器开辟道路。

我们确实通过印度斯坦航空来建造船只和飞机。大多数尖端技术已由上述国家的私人国防承包商和工业获得专利。由于这是一个敏感的辩护话题,这些组织背后的政府为他们的专利进行了激烈的辩护,因此,如果有人想使用,就必须花钱购买。

亲们,直到几年前,还是最大的武器进口国。

 

Matt Pickering, Been a military aviation nut since childhood.

Originally Answered: Why can India not make its own fighter jets?

It has. It has designed two indigenous fighters, several other aircraft and has built other foreign designs under license.

The HAL Kiran is an intermediate two-set jet trainer.

The HAL HF-24 Marut was India’s first native fighter design and it was its first supersonic design.

The HAL Tejas is India’s latest supersonic design and is in the process of entering service.

India has built the MiG-21, SEPECAT Jaguar and Su-30 under license.

Seems to me India is fairly capable of making its own fighter jets.

最初的问题是:为什么印度自己不会造战斗机?

印度造了。印度已经设计了两架本土战斗机,并在许可下造了一些外国设计的飞机。

印度斯坦基兰(HAL Kiran)是一种中级双座喷气教练机。

印度斯坦HF-24 Marut是印度第一款国产战斗机,也是第一款超音速战斗机。

光辉战机是印度最新的超音速设计,目前已进入军队服役。

印度已经在许可下建造了米格-21、捷豹SEPECAT和苏-30。

在我看来,印度是有能力自己造战斗机的。

 

Shanker K.Vee., former Technical Writer at Retired (2006-2015)

Originally Answered: Why in the world can't India manufacture fighter jets like the Rafale?

I think the need for develo wons through wholly indigenous efforts is over. I would discourage any research from scratch that is equivalent to re-inventing the wheel. It was necessary during 1990's but hardly makes any sense today.

Indigenous efforts are worthless for all available wons for the following reasons:

1.It's very costly and time consuming. By the time we could make a prototype, world would have moved over quite far away from us.

2.HAL doesn't seem to absorb\not allowed to absorb the high technology. It appears to get only screw-drive technology of the crafts it manufactures for decades. I don't think, from the scratch, it can design/make equivalent crafts it manufactures so long.

3.The technology denial of 90's is over, and countries are very eager to share technology and or make the wons in India. Even, US is eager for joint development.

4.Our DRDO is notorious for unending delays with successful release nowhere at sight. Recall abandonment of Cauvery Engine, and yet to succeed 'Intermediate Jet Trainer'. Even with technical collaboration at latter stages, the problems remain. Already, DRDO labs have their plates full.

So, the best practice would be to go for 'Make in India' or the joint development from the begng as applicable.   

最初的问题是:为什么印度不会造阵风那样的战斗机?

我认为,完全通过本土努力开发武器的需要已经结束。我不鼓励任何从零开始,相当于重走一遍发明之路的研究。这在90年代是必要的,但在今天几乎没有任何意义。

由于下列原因,对所有现有武器来说,国产化的努力都是毫无价值的:

1.非常昂贵费时。当我们制造出一个原型时,时代又会遥遥地把我们甩在身后。

2.印度斯坦似乎并没有吸收——或不能吸收高科技。它似乎只获得了几十年来所生产工艺品的螺旋传动技术。我不认为,从零开始的话,印度斯坦航空能设计/制造出一样出色的产品。

3.90年代对技术的拒绝已经过去,各国都渴望在印度分享技术或制造武器。甚至美国也渴望和印度共同发展。

4.我们的DRDO的无休止的延迟已经臭名昭著,根本看不到成功发布的希望。回忆一下放弃考维利发动机,还未成功的“中级喷气教练机”。即使在技术合作的后期阶段,问题仍然存在。

所以,最好的做法是从一开始就选择“印度制造”或联合研发。

 

Shumayel Liton

This has largely to do with lack credible R&D powered industry. While it is true that india has organizations such as DRDO, HAL, etc, none of these organizations work by injecting R&D and innovation. Instead, the focus is on commercialisation, fear of failure, profits, and copying western designs. The fact is that a large chunk of R&D has pential of going to failure and while the west is willing to invest to absorb this, india's focus is on making profits away and/or copying. In india, any product can offi ally be called indigenous, if it uses around 40-50% of components produced in india. The other reasons are incapacity in the education sy em to produce skillfull workers, and process based organizations with focus on high quality control. Indian mentality also has a large to play in it, since indians want to import as much instead of making on their own.

这在很大程度上与缺乏可靠的研发动力产业有关。虽然印度确实有DRDO、HAL等组织,但这些组织都不是靠注入研发和创新来工作的。相反,这些组织关注的焦点是如何商业化、对失败的恐惧、利润如何和模仿西方设计。事实是,很大一部分研发可能会失败,西方愿意投资并接受失败,但印度只关心能否立即盈利和(或)复制。在印度,任何产品如果使用了印度生产的大约40-50%的零部件,都可以被正式称为本土产品。另一个原因是教育系统缺乏培养高技能工人的能力,以及注重高质量控制的组织。印度人的心态也有很大的影响,因为印度人想要进口尽可能多的东西,而非自己生产。

 

Rahul .Gokhale

I have answered this question elsewhere but to recap, we do not have the expertise or the financial resources at this time to build a fighter jet. Fighter jets are significant undertakings and require a mature well developed industrial base in many different areas like engines, ronics, radars, software (for FCS), displays, etc. India did not have a program in aeronautics till 1990. To develop fighters we would need to build expertise in at least the main components that make up a fighter jet and this would take significant amount of financial resources which we do not have. Unless and until drastic investments are made in human, technical, and other resources related to the defense industry i suspect we are always going to play catch up.

我在其他地方已经回答过这个问题,但总而言之,我们目前没有制造战斗机的专业知识或财政资源。战斗机是一项重大的工程,需要在发动机、电子、雷达、软件、显示器等许多不同领域拥有成熟、发展良好的工业基础。印度直到1990年才有航空项目。为了发展战斗机,我们需要至少对组建战斗机的主要部件学习专门知识,这需要大量的财政资源,这正是我们缺乏的。除非在人力、技术和国防工业相关的其他资源上进行大规模投资,否则我不认为我们能迎头赶上。

 

Damien Leimbach, USAF avionics technician, U-2s

its the culmination of several different reasons which I shall try to briefly state.

India was not directly involved in any international, large scale conflicts during the dawning of the ronics age, which arguably happened in the 40’s and 50’s.

As a result, you had no reason to dump billions of dollars into domestic arms developers, engineering firms, ronics companies, software and computer companies, or materials research companies.

Countries like the U.S. did, largely because we could afford to, and largely because we were involved in a cold war arms race at the time.

So India could try to catch up, but it would be a long, expensive road, and unless you really think you can produce something genuinely better, the money would be better spent on purchasing what you need.

One way for you to catch up quickly would be to reach an agreement with a superpower where you domestically produce someone else's design under license. Its more expensive, but the lessons you learn could go a long way towards erasing that 70 year deficit.

这是几个不同原因共同造成的结果,我来简单说说这些原因。

在电子工业时代初期,也就是40年代和50年代,印度没有直接卷入任何国际性的大规模冲突。

因此,你们没有理由向国内武器开发商、工程公司、电子公司、软件和计算机公司或材料研究公司投入数十亿美元的研发经费。

美国之类的国家会这么做,很大程度上是因为我们负担得起,很大程度上也是因为我们当时卷入了冷战时期的军备竞赛。

所以印度可以试着迎头赶上,但这会是一条漫长而昂贵的道路,除非你真的认为你能生产出真正更好的东西,否则最好把这笔钱花在购买你所需要的东西上。

让你快速迎头赶上的一个方法是与某个超级大国达成协议,在这个协议中,你可以凭借许可在国内生产别人的设计。这样做确实比较费钱,但你从中学到的经验教训,可能对消除70年的缺漏大有帮助。

 

Shawn Noronha, The rational man.

Originally Answered: Why does India have to purchase fighter jets from other countries?

Because we only have quantity of engineers with close to Zero quality. Our education is heavy focused on theory only, and practicals are a joke.

Of the few % of b students who do est, and that are capable of doing great things, our infamous reservation based sy em makes sure that they don't get seats, and undeserving and underachieving students get to take their place instead.

Sad but true, most Indians become highly successful when they join foreign institutions in the west.

最初的问题是:为什么印度要从其他国家购买战斗机?

因为我们的工程师只有数量,质量趋向于零。我们的教育偏重于理论,而实践只是个笑话。

少数聪明的学生确实存在,他们有能力做伟大的事情,但我们臭名昭著的预留制不给他们留席位,反而是那些不够格、成绩不佳的学生取而代之了。

可悲但真实的情况是,大多数印度人在西方加入外国机构后取得了很大的成功。

 

Ranga Prasad, Po itical scientist, Historian and Spiritualist

No. India doesnt have the technology.

We didnt have FDI for these many years. All countries including USA and USSR have private players which will give penetration.

Also, from Nehru's period, we con trated only on infrastructure and not on human resources. Even the Mmodi go nment has slashed 15% for research. Untill, we dont give importance to research, we wont have technology. And with no technology, we will end up with NO.1 in defense importer.

不。印度没有这种技术。

我们已经很多年没有外商直接投资了。包括美国和苏联在内的所有国家都有私营企业,这能带来突破。

另外,从尼赫鲁时期开始,我们只关注基础设施,而非人力资源。就连莫迪政府也削减了15%的研究经费。我们不重视研究,就不会有技术。如果没有技术,我们最终将成为国防第一大进口国。

 

Aathan, Indian is my second identity

India is capable making any kind of jets and wons. Give it a chance. Two sectors, Space exploration and Nuclear power were totally closed to India. India has developed those two complex technology areas on its own. In space exploration India is second to none, a stage we reached overcoming many sabotage attempts . We are not in need in nuclear technology either and the purchase of power reactors from foreign countries are for Geo Po itical reasons only. But we are unable to be self reliant even in small arms. Reason for this is co ption. Defense imports are lucrative to corrupt people. We would have indigenous 5+ generation fighters jets by now if we were not supplied with jets from other countries.

印度有能力制造任何类型的飞机和武器。要给它一个机会。空间探索和核动力两个领域对印度完全封锁。但印度靠自己在这两个复杂的技术领域闯出了天地。在太空探索方面,印度是首屈一指的。我们也不需要核技术,从外国购买动力反应堆仅仅是出于地缘政治原因。但是,即使是在小武器中,我们也不能自力更生。原因是腐败。国防进口对腐败分子是有利可图的。如果没有其他国家的飞机供应,我们到目前为止将拥有本土的5+代战斗机。两个部门,空间探索和核能对印度完全关闭。印度已经独立开发了这两个复杂的技术领域。在太空探索方面,印度是首屈一指的,我们已经克服了许多破坏企图。我们也不需要核技术,从外国购买动力反应堆只是出于地缘政治原因。但是,即使在小武器方面,我们也无法自力更生。原因就是腐败。对腐败的人来说,进口国防武器是有利可图的。如果没有其他国家的飞机供应,我们现在应该造出国产的5+代战斗机了。

 

Ravi Chandra

India already manufactures Su30MKI, The problem with India is not manufacturing, but design and geo po itics. After Hal marut(India's first fighter jet in 1960's), There was no follow up projects and all talent was lost in due time, While Tejas is different story, with no industry base and foreign powers trying to scuttle the project as they will loose big customer like India .

Second ADA is responsible for design of aircraft for planes not DRDO. thanks to Tejas MK I . ADA is designing MK II of Tejas and 5 th Gen Fighter AMCA . We started now hopefully in future we can design and develop jet on par with other world powers .

印度已经制造了Su30MKI,印度的问题不在于制造,而在于设计和地缘政治。在印度斯坦的Marut之后(印度60年代的第一架战斗机),没有后续项目,所有的人才都陆续流失了,而光辉战机则不同,没有工业基地,外国势力试图破坏这个项目,因为他们会失去像印度这样的大客户。

第二,国防部负责飞机的设计,而不是DRDO。感谢光辉MK I。国防部正在设计光辉的MK II和第5代战斗机。我们希望,将来我们能设计和开发出与其他世界强国相媲美的喷气式飞机。

 

Varun Rao, I don't know what to say... o_o

This is just based on all that i have read, but as of today, the Govt is not one that supports R&D. No matter how many ever institutes and organisations are opened and inaugurated, until there are sufficient funds and support by the Govt for R&D, an indigenous jet, or any other equipment for that matter, will not be.

到今天为止,政府并没有支持研发。无论成立了多少研究所和组织,在政府为研发提供足够的资金和支持之前,本土飞机或任何其他相关设备都不可能出现。

 

Subhrajyoti Parida, works at Helicopter Division, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

Unless the ber students love their motherland and work for her, we can't make indigenous fighter jets..

除非聪明的学生热爱他们的祖国,为祖国母亲工作,否则我们无法制造本土的战斗机。

 

Patrick Bindner, pilot, fluid dynamics engineering research, 100+ R&D papers

It’s pretty simple. They do build indigenous aircraft, including a supersonic 4-gen fighter.

这很简单。他们确实制造了本土飞机,其中还包括了一架超音速4代战斗机。

 

Sarang Kashikar, worked at Indian Army

We do manufacture wons in India. However, we need to have more R & D, and master cutting edge technology.

我们确实在印度本土制造武器。但是,我们需要有更多的研发,掌握前沿技术。

 

Praveen Venkiteswara Annu, India; my motherland, my pride. Born and bred in India. TW18

LCA or Tejas is one small step for India. Hopefully, we will soon have the required technology transfer to build fighter jets like Rafale indigenously.

轻型战斗机和光辉战机是印度迈出的一小步。希望不久我们就能获得必要的技术转让,自主生产“阵风”这样的战斗机。

 

Bumbhole Rao

Because govt employees sries are not sufficient to keep the pace with social change therefore if collective will of the go nment can be relaxed for few decades then others can enjoy perks of such inability !!

因为政府雇员的工资无法跟上社会变化的步伐,所以如果政府的集体意志可以放松几十年,那么其他人就可以享受这种无能的津贴!!

 

Padmabhushan Shivram Rajguru, worked at Walchand College of Engineering, Sangli

This is because of lack of private companies in India's defence sector .in america many companies are working for the military development applications sy em. But the case is not with India..

这是因为印度国防部门缺乏私营企业。在美国,许多公司都在为军事发展应用系统工作。但印度并非如此。

 

Juby Mathew, Managing Director at www.cogreen.in

The biggest Mafia is Medical Industry and Won Industry.

最大的黑手党是医药工业和武器工业。

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Well I, being from Aviation Branch, will not comment for Fighter Jet specifically, because it's useless to talk considering the Small initiative like SARAS project which started with pomp and show never saw the day light with lots of bureocracy, internal po itics,external po itics and to take upper cut from black marketers of won industry.

Go nment should start having all these things made by doing reverse engineering and then go on to develop advanced versions in India....will army accept this approach?

There is no big defence industry in india. Kickbacks from foreign companies was the name of the game.

Defence allocation should be at least 5 percent of GDP. Allow THAAD missile defence sy em on border and Pak border along with S-400 missile defence sy em. Thereafter we will have lot of time to build other equipment .

Defence procurement is slow because babus sitting in the MOD are looking for bribes else they will slow down procurment.

So let me come to the conclusion,No we can't build our own advance won sy em for another 100 years because our babu's will never allow that.

我,来自航空行业,不会特别对喷气式战斗机发表评论,因为这纯属毫无意义的讨论,萨拉斯这样的项目开始时敲锣打鼓阵仗十足,可从未看到过曙光,只有无穷无尽的政治、内部政治、外部政治并从武器行业的黑市商人手中捞取好处。

政府应该通过逆向工程来制造所有这些东西,然后在印度继续研发改进版本……军方会接受这种方式吗?

印度没有大型国防工业。来自外国公司的回扣才是问题的关键。

国防拨款至少应占GDP的5%。允许萨德导弹防御系统与S-400导弹防御系统部署在和巴基斯坦边境。之后我们将有很多时间来建造其他设备。

国防采购之所以缓慢,是因为在国防部办公室里的官老爷们得拿点,否则他们就放慢采购速度。

所以让我来总结一下,不,我们未来100年内都不可能建立我们自己的先进武器系统,因为我们的官老爷们永远不会允许那样做。

三泰虎原创译文,禁止转载!:首页 > 印度 » 印度为什么不会自己造战机和武器,印网友:我们造了阿琼坦克

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