三泰虎

印政府强迫陆军购买国产阿琼坦克,印军官抱怨质量太差

India go nment forces the Indian Army to buy India made Arjun Tanks but the India force commanders compn that the Arjun Tanks are even worse than the Russian made T34, Why?

印度政府强迫印度陆军购买国产阿琼,但印度陆军指挥官抱怨阿琼比俄罗斯产的T-34还要差劲,这是为什么?

Quora评论翻译:

来源:三泰虎 http://www.santaihu.com/45913.html 译者:Jessica.Wu

外文:https://www.quora.com/India-go nment-forces-the-Indian-Army-to-buy-India-made-Arjun-Tanks-but-the-India-force-commanders-compn-that-the-Arjun-Tanks-are-even-worse-than-the-Russian-made-T34-Why

Anonymous

The Indian Army wants different t ks because the strategic environment has changed - not because of any inherent quality flaw with Arjun

印度陆军想要其它是因为战略环境已经改变,而不是因为阿琼的内在质量缺陷。

TLDR

The Arjun was first conceived during the heyday of US-Pak co-operation, when Pakistan was supporting Afghan resistance ag inst USSR’s invasion of Afghanistan. There was talk of US pentially selling the Abrams t k to Pakistan.

阿琼最初是在美巴合作的全盛时期构想的,当时巴基斯坦支持阿富汗抵抗的入侵。有传言称美国可能会把艾布拉姆斯卖给巴基斯坦。

As a result the Arjun was initially designed to compete ag inst an “Abrams-like” t k in the Thar desert. This design has meant that it is a larger, heavier t k, incorporating thicker armor to ensure better survivability (following the NATO thought process for t k design) versus a smaller, lighter t k that prioritizes speed and maneuverability (following the Warsaw pact/Russian thought process for t k design)

因此,最初设计阿琼是为了在塔尔沙漠与“艾布拉姆斯”抗衡。这种设计意味着它将是一种更大、更重的,采用更厚的装甲以确保更强的生存能力(遵循北约的设计思路),而不是一种更小、更轻、优先考虑速度和机动性的(遵循华沙公约/俄罗斯的设计思路)

For the majority of years when Arjun moved from concept to reality, the strategic scenario stayed much the same - Pakistan was a close US ally, and the Indian war doctrine called for a decisive thrust through the Thar desert, sp tting Pakistan into two by reaching Quetta

在阿琼从概念到现实的大部分时间里,战略场景基本保持不变——巴基斯坦是美国的亲密盟友,而印度的作战理论要求穿越塔尔沙漠到达奎塔将巴基斯坦一分为二。

If Indian plans were to center around a major t k push in the Thar, the Arjun is still a great t k for the job.

But…. the strategic scenario has since changed completely.

India and Pakistan are now declared nuclear powers.

如果印度的计划是以塔尔沙漠为中心布置,那阿琼是完成这项任务的完美。

但从那以后,战略情景完全改变了。

现在印度和巴基斯坦都宣布拥有核武器。

So a big, highly visible, t k push through the Thar will invite immediate nuclear retaliation. The new Indian “Cold Start” doctrine relies on small lightning fast attacks anywhere along the entire Indo-Pak border

因此,一辆巨大的、引人注目的通过塔尔沙漠将立即招致核报复。印度的“冷启动”新作战理论依赖于沿印巴边界任何地方的闪电般的快速攻击。

The Indian Army now wants a single t k platform, that is light enough and versatile enough to be deployed not only in the desert, but also in the muddy fields of Punjab, as well as along the t k friendly landscapes along the India- border such as Ladakh and Sikkim.

印度陆军现在想要的是一种单一的,这种重量轻,用途广,不仅可以部署在沙漠中,也可以部署在旁遮普泥泞的田野里,还可以部署在拉达克和锡金等印中边境沿线。

The Arjun is simply too big and heavy for that role. The developers of Arjun have been making design changes to shave weight off the t k, but getting to the target weight (below 50 tons with a full armament load) will require a complete redesign of that t k.

对于这个要求来说,阿琼实在太大太重了。阿琼的开发人员一直在进行设计修改,以降低的重量,但要达到目标重量(在满载武器的情况下低于50吨),需要对进行彻底的重新设计。

Indian Army's t k modification proposals could delay induction by 7 years

Hence, the Indian Army has capped the purchases of Arjun and is instead going for a fresh t k design under the Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV) program

India to Develop and Build 1,770 New Armored Fighting Vehicles

印度陆军的改装计划可能会推迟7年服役。

因此,印度陆军已经限制了对阿琼的购买,取而代之的是在“未来新型主战计划”下进行新的设计。

印度将研发和建造1770辆“新型装甲战车”。

 

Neeraj S, Sentiment investor and momentum trader.

Arjun t k had some flaws a decade ago but then the engineers worked on that, and the Indian army is happy with them.

Also, Modi gt has unleashed the talent and ability of the Indian private sector companies to manufacture for the Indian defence forces, and the next t k will be made by them.

Larsen is making submarine besides competing with Tata Motors and Force Motors to manufacture the next ICV order.

Tata Power has manufactured a modern Artillery gun and already field tested it. The army will be testing it now.

Reliance Naval is competing with PSU shipyards to fulfill the very large orders for frigate, dest yer, patrol boat, radar, corvette, etc.

Ashok Leyland provides the rocket launcher mobile platforms for Indian army.

The list goes on and on….

在十年前阿琼有一些缺陷,但后来工程师们对此进行了改进,印度陆军对此很满意。

此外,莫迪政府释放了印度私营企业为印度国防军制造的才能和能力,下一辆将由它们来制造。

除了与塔塔汽车和Force Motors竞争下一个未来新型主战订单外,拿丁集团也在制造潜艇。

塔塔电力公司已经制造了一种现代化的大炮,并且已经进行了实地测试。军方也正在进行测试。

信实海军与工程公司正在与国营造船厂竞争,以完成护卫舰、驱逐舰、巡逻艇、雷达、轻型护卫舰等大型订单。

利兰汽车为印度军队提供火箭发射移动平台。

这样的例子不胜枚举,....

Unfortunately the Congress gt never encouraged Indian companies to manufacture defence equipment within India, and chose to purchase this from global won makers and spent a hundred billion $, Lakhs of crores of rupees, for these imports.

Now India will pay this huge amount of public money to the Indian equipment manufacturers who will not only pay 25% income tax to the gt but also create Lakhs of direct and indirect jobs.

Indian companies always had the ability but they were never encouraged to build any equipment.

If you ask me, i am in favour of deporting Sonia Gandhi back to Italy.

不幸的是,国大党政府从来没有鼓励印度公司在国内制造国防设备,而是选择从全球武器制造商那里购买,并为此花费了上千亿美元。

现在,印度政府将向印度设备制造商购买,把这些巨额资金支付给印度制造商,而这些制造商不仅将向政府缴纳25%的所得税,还将创造大量的直接和间接就业机会。

印度公司一直有能力,但从未被鼓励制造任何设备。

如果你问我,我赞成把索尼娅·甘地遣送回意大利。

 

Sgsundaram, former Retired DRDO Scientist

i was working in this field of t k renovation during my professional life. the fact that t ks go up gradation every now and then depending on the terrain and the attack of warheads it has to face. as every one knows warheads go up gradation more faster than that of t ks. so to take care of warheads superiority we have to upgrade the t ks accordingly. to que one example of it old Russian t ks does not have the concept of reactive armour to face the attack of warheads. now if it has to be fitted it costs exchequer enormously for each t k. you know our country has three sides encircled with land . imagine what will be cost works out if all the t ks are to be upgraded. as such India is having more than 50% of its t ks which is of Russian origin. in a nutshell it is better to have indigenous source to face the consequences in the long run. it is true that services finds some lacuna in Indian made t ks but it has to be sorted out with DRDO and inspection wings of defense. that will be better for the country.with so many private entrepreneurs entering day is not far off that India will have a superior t ks for services.

在我的职业生涯中,我一直从事改造工作。事实上,有时会随着面临的地形和弹头攻击力而升级。大家都知道,弹头的升级速度比更快。所以为了保持对弹头的优势,我们必须相应地升级。举个例子,老式俄罗斯没有没有反应装甲的概念来面对弹头攻击。现在,如果要升级,成本会非常高。我们国家有三面被陆地包围,由于印度50%以上的都来自俄罗斯,如果所有都要升级,成本会是多少。简言之,从长远来看,最好是在本土制造。的确,军方在印度制造的中发现了一些漏洞,但这必须通过国防研究与发展组织来解决。这也将对国家有利,随着众多私人企业进入印度市场,印度将拥有更好的来服役。

 

Jaajvel E.P

No one forces the Indian military to buy a sub standard product ag inst their wishes. The problem lies in the fact that the Indian border on the western side is having a desert on Rajasthan and Gujarat states, agricultural land on Punjab state, and all other areas are having the natural mountainous boundary of himyas. In the desert heavier t ks like Arjun which is a world class t k with more than 65 tons in weight can operate, but in the agricultural region only t ks below 60 tons like T90 can operate which have to travel through muddy lands, and in mountainous region only t ks below 50 tons like T72 can operate. The T90 or any other t ks currently in possession of other neighbouring countries are no match for Arjun with it's superior features, which have been proven by comparative trials of it with T90 and in the audit conducted by the Israeli team. Hence the deployment of Arjun is restricted to the desert region. If DRDO finds a way in reducing its weight it will rule the world in any theatre. I am of the oion that the Indian Go nment should market it outside India for selling it to other countries.

没有人强迫印度军方违背他们的意愿购买低于标准的产品。问题在于,印度西部边境的拉贾斯坦邦和古吉拉特邦位于沙漠区域,旁遮普邦是农业用地,所有其他地区都有喜马拉雅山脉天然屏障。阿琼是世界级的重,重量超过65吨,可在沙漠地区操作。但在农业地区,只有重量低于60吨的,像T-90才可以穿过泥泞的土地,在山区只有重量低于50吨的,像T-72才能操作。目前其它邻国拥有的T-90或任何其他都无法与阿琼匹敌,因为阿琼具有优越的性能,这一点已通过与T-90的对比试验和以色列团队的审计得到证实。因此阿琼的部署仅限于沙漠地区。如果国防研究与发展组织找到了为阿琼“减肥”的方法,它将在任何战场统治世界。我认为印度政府应该在印度以外进行市场营销,把它卖给其他国家。

 

Adolf Winchester, former Team Leader, Standard Setter

Well,

First let's examine the comparison made in question.

Arjun.

120 mm rienmetal gun

Thermal sight

Ballistic computer

Fire control sy em integrated

Pneumatic suspension

1400 bhp engine

MBT classification

Best ergonomics In India

Composite armour

Laser range finder

T 34

One of the first Russian t ks

Poor ergonomics

Not an MBT

No FCS

No night sight

No ballistic computer

Spring suspension

No LRF.

So, here we are, do we really have a comparison?

The t k is better than the Russians on many counts and is further being improved however the biggest plus is it's indigenous majorly which gives local industry the valuable experience.

首先让我们来做一下比较。

阿琼:

120毫米口径主炮

热成象

弹道计算机

综合火控系统

空气悬架

1400马力引擎

级别为主战

印度最佳人体工效设计

复合装甲

激光测距仪

T -34

俄国首批之一

糟糕的人体工效设计

非主战

没有综合火控系统

没有夜视仪

没有弹道计算机

弹簧悬挂

没有激光测距仪

那么,真有可比性吗?

阿琼在很多方面都比俄罗斯更好,而且还在进一步改进,但最大的优点是它是本土产的,这给本土工业带来宝贵经验。

 

Sayantan Nath

the compnt about Arjun t k and Tejas fighter are also encountered in TV and news.

But, Indian Gt. asked Indian Army to by Arjun Tanks for two reasons mainly (according to my assumption purely):

The money spent to buy t k could stay inside the country and used for its own development so that another Bofors type of scandal would not take place…
may not in forward position in battle, but in defensive position Arjun t k could take a strong hold ag inst enemy

在电视和新闻中,也有对阿琼和光辉战机的抱怨。

但是,印度政府要求印度军队使用阿琼的主要有两个原因(完全是我个人的观点):

买的经费应该花在国内,用于自身发展,这样类似博福斯高射炮的丑闻将不会重演……

在战斗中可能不能部署在前沿阵地,但在防御阵地上,阿琼可以对敌人采取强有力的控制。

 

Gautam Somani, lives in India

What exactly is the question here? Why the Gt is forcing the Indian Army or why the Army says it is worse that T34?

这个问题到底是在问什么?是为什么政府强迫印度陆军购买阿琼?还是印度陆军为什么说T-34比阿琼更差劲?

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