三泰虎

既然世界上已经不存在奴隶制了,为何印度的种姓制度还未消失呢?

If sl very vanished from world then why can't caste sy em vanish from India?

既然世界上已经不存在奴制了,为何印度的种姓制度还未消失呢? 

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来源:三泰虎   http://www.santaihu.com/45900.html        译者:Joyceliu

外文链接:https://www.quora.com/If-sl very-vanished-from-world-then-why-cant-caste-sy em-vanish-from-India

Amar Vamsi Krishna, A Mechanical Engineer with a fr for life

They still est and get reservations.

种姓仍然存在并且得到了预留席位。

 

Luiz Bharali

Because Indians are the most narrow minded, selfish people in the world. Some section and states of India wants to live in the past and never wants to move ahead. They drive Cars but in reality they are going to the future still in the bullock carts

因为印度人是世界上心胸最狭窄、最自私的民族。印度的一些地区和邦希望生活在过去,永远都不想前进。他们虽然开着车,但事实上他们还坐在牛车里走向未来

 

Manjeet Mehta, studied at Krishna Institute of Engineering and Technology, Ghaziabad

1. I didnt want to hurt anyone but think about points wisely.

1. 我不想伤害任何人,但我会明智地考虑问题。

2. Caste sy em can't be removed until we remove caste based reservation.Even school going kids are aware of caste of their friend.

2. 种姓制度不能被移除,除非我们移除基于种姓的预留制。就连上学的孩子都知道他们的朋友都是什么种姓。

3.If caste reservation is removed after 10 years of independence as discussed during 1950 .I guarantee that most of us have forgotten what is caste .as only our caste certificate again and again tell that hey I'm sc or st or general

3. 如果种姓预留制度在印度独立10年后取消,就像1950年代曾讨论过的那样。我敢保证我们大多数人都不记得种姓是什么了。因为我们的种姓证书一次又一次地提醒我们,嘿,我是表列种姓、表列部落或普通种姓

4.Every Sc/St should think about it because reservation help them to get govt. Job or help in college but they also have to live with a shame (ask yourself).

4. 每个表列种姓、表列部落都应该考虑一下,因为预留制可以帮助他们得到政府的工作或大学的帮助,但他们也必须忍受羞耻(问问自己是不是如此)。

5.If reservation is removed then coming generation will forget about caste sy em and country will soon be in list of developed nation.

5. 如果预留制被取消,那么我们的下一代将忘记种姓制度,印度将迅速跻身发达国家之列。

 

K Sree Harsha, Mechanical Engineering

Well caste sy em is not at all sl very ,chatur varna ( caste sy em ) was just a social structure that was successfully imparted in society according to duties and occupation ,and today we have different social structure in our society 'the occupation or duties ' relating to varna is lost but only caste feeling is left among the people ,Even in chatur varna everybody is equal !

种姓制度根本不是奴制,查图尔·瓦尔纳(种姓制度)只是一种社会结构,它是根据职责和职业成功地在社会中传播的,今天我们的社会有不同的社会结构,与种姓制度有关的“职业或职责”消失了,但人民中只剩下种姓的感情,在种姓制度中其实也是人人平等的!

 

Rswamy Subrnian, Enrich your thoughts, and live a life of your own.

Slavery has not vanished, only the word sl very has been substituted by other words. A desire to control one person by another in any form is sl very. Knowingly or unknowingly, it is still happening in every part of the world. A sy em that restricts the activities of people on the basis of ethnicity, nationality, re gion, etc. are sl very. A desire to control one nation by another is also sl very. It is a universal phenomena, and is also an inbuilt mind-set of every person. Only the law of the land differentiates it.

奴制并没有消失,只是奴制这个词被其他的词所取代了。想要以任何形式控制一个人的欲望就是。无论是有意还是无意,它仍在世界各地发生着。以种族、国籍、宗教等为基础限制人们活动的制度就是奴制。一个国家想要控制另一个国家的欲望也是一种。这是一种普遍现象,也是每个人的内在思维定势。只有最高法律才能区分它。

 

Abhinash Jami

This really happened when I was studying

这个事情发生在我还是学生的时候

I had a servant who used to work in my house. Suddenly her wife got ill at that time. so he borrowed Rs.10000 from my father for her medicines and treatment & transport .As he admitted her in a go nment hospital, the doctor who checked her opted some treatment. after 2 days she died , So my servent gave a police compnt on doctor who treated her .What the truth is that the doctor is not minimum e gible for performing a surgery as the hospital recruited him based on his caste rather than his merit.This is most bitter in dent & my servent decided to give up the case after some time bcz he can't afford to hire lawyers for the case.Trust me guys this is not only the in dent many such in dents happen in go nment hospitals of India

有个佣人曾经在我家工作。她的妻子突然生病了。于是他从我父亲那里借了10000卢比买药、治疗、把她送去医院。当他把她送进政府医院时,给她做检查的医生选择了一些治疗方法。两天后,她去世了,所以我的佣人向警方投诉了她的主治医生。事实是,这位医生并不符合做手术的最低资质要求,医院录用他纯粹是因为他的种姓而不是他有多优秀。这是最痛苦的事件,我的佣人过了一段时间决定放弃起诉,因为他没钱聘请律师代理这个案件。相信我,伙计们,这个事故不是个例,印度的政府医院里发生过很多此类事件。

I am not ag inst caste sy em but caste sy em may be more prevalent in education ,How can be caste sy em really opted in employment wing?

我不反对种姓制度,但种姓制度可能在教育制度中更普遍,工作岗位怎么能真的采取种姓制度呢?

 

Yogisha Selvanathan, works at Indian Revenue Service, Income Tax (2017-present)

It's origin is the major reason . Slavery, feudalism etc were abolished  because they didn't have their origin linked to re gion unlike caste sy em . Caste sy em is based on the re gious beliefs of Indians (particularly Hindus and later had  its influence even among Chr tians and Mus ms in India ). If we need to abolish caste sy em it will trigger the re gious sentiments of the people and go nments that come to power also want to play safe and use it for their own benefits and po iticise caste which makes it even more difficult to abolish .

它的起源是主要原因。奴制度、封建制度等都被废除了,因为它们不像种姓制度那样与宗教有渊源。种姓制度是基于印度人的(尤其是印度教徒,后来甚至在印度的基督徒和中也有影响)。如果我们需要废除种姓制度,它将会引发民众和当权政府的宗教情绪,他们也想稳扎稳打,利用它为自己谋福利,将种姓政治化,使其更难废除。

 

Neha Shrivastava, quixotic

Firstly sl very and caste sy em are two very different things. It's not as reletable as- that since crude oil prices have gone down in world market, why doesn't petrol prices come down.

首先,奴制和种姓制度是两码事。它不像国际市场中原油价格下降了,汽油价格为何还不下降这么简单。

People never wanted to be sl ves, there was no sense of community or belongingness with sl ves - may be because they never had the fre m to intermingle with each other and discuss their issues.

人们从来都不想成为奴,他们对奴没有社群意识,也没有归属感——可能是因为他们从来没有互相交往、讨论他们的问题的自由。

While caste sy em has a sense of identity with people. It gives them a sense of belonging to a group or community. People don't just want to get out of their castes coz belonging to a caste is not cruel upon them in any way. In fact it has its own merits too.

而种姓制度对人有一种认同感。它给他们一种属于一个团体或社区的感觉。人们并非只想摆脱他们的种姓,因为属于一个种姓的人在任何方面对他们并不痛苦。事实上,它也有自己的优点。

There are of course some negative effects with it,  especially when po itics tries to take advantage of the community feeling for their vested interests.

当然,它也有一些负面影响,尤其是当政治试图利用社区情感获得既得利益时。

But you can't just take away people's since of belonging suddenly, you can't expect them to give up their sense of community.

但是你不能突然剥夺人们的归属感,你不能指望他们放弃他们的社区意识。

 

Rohith Pothepalli, indian

No people of India will not accept it and without the ve bank po iticians can't do anythng.  ....

不,印度人民不会接受,没有票仓,银行的政客们就什么也做不了。

best thing to do is apply reservation for everyone including OC , BC , SC ,ST

最好的办法是为每个人申请预约,包括最高级种姓,低种姓, 表列种姓,表列部落

Based on the population and. ....Let us suppose, We have 40 % Oc population 30 % BC population

20 % SC population 10 % ST population

基于人口,让我们假设,我们有40% 最高级种姓人口、30%低种姓人口、 20%表列种姓人口、10%表列部落人口

Reservations should be like

预留制应该为:

OC -25%

BC -15%

SC -10%

ST -5%

Gen -50% ( as our constitution says reservation should not exceed 50%)

最高级种姓—25%

低种姓—15%

表列种姓—10%

表列部落—5%

普通-50%(根据我们的宪法,预留席位不应超过50%)

Now social justice and equality ensures its place

现在,社会公正和平等确保了它的地位

Discmer : above discussion and numbers are took for example ... Take it easy ....

以上讨论及数字都只是举例…

 

Shreyan Gariba

I will give you a direct and straight forward answer. The caste sy em is the biggest co ption of Indian society. Unfortunately, people are not aware of the reality of ancient India and the vedic period. In vedic literature like the rigveda, there is not a single mention of any kind of caste sy em and there is also no mention of any re gion. People were simply classified according to their profession( teacher, businessman, worker etc). The caste sy em has been created by the british to divide and rule India. The aryan invasion theory was a theory used by the british to divide and rule the country. Unfortunately, people are not aware of these things and they blindly accept what is handed down to them by society. People should do some research and understand that India never had any kind of divisions and that everyone was treated equally. The vedic period upholds everyone as equal and upholds the dignity of labour. The vedic period is the reality of India because it speaks of only one race that is the human race and the vedic literature speaks just about spirituality and not about any caste sy em or re gion. I hope that my answer helps you. Cheers

我会给你一个直接直白的回答。种姓制度是印度社会最大的腐败。不幸的是,人们没有意识到古印度和吠陀时期的现实。在吠陀文献中,比如梨俱吠陀,并没有提到任何种姓制度,也没有提到任何宗教。人们只是按照他们的职业(教师、商人、工人等)来分类。种姓制度是英国为了分裂和统治印度而建立的系统。雅利安人入侵理论是英国用来分裂和统治这个国家的理论。不幸的是,人们没有意识到这些事情,他们盲目地接受社会留给他们的东西。人们应该做一些研究,搞清楚印度从来没有任何分歧,每个人都得到了平等对待。吠陀时期维护每个人平等,维护劳动的尊严。吠陀时期是印度的现实,因为它谈论的都是一个种族,那就是人类,吠陀文学只讲灵性,不讲任何种姓制度或宗教。我希望我的回答能帮到你。干杯

 

Vishal Paike, works at Technothlon

Condition of Shudras today is much more different than it was before independence. Before independence Shudras were treated miserably by our caste sy em. So they did want caste sy em to vanish from our society.

今天的首陀罗状况与独立前相比有了很大的不同。在独立之前,首陀罗被我们的种姓制度悲惨地对待。所以他们希望种姓制度从我们的社会中消失。

After independence, reservation was introduced which meant to increase the representation of lower caste people in society so they can fight ag inst the injustice of caste sy em . But today group of people from these castes are using reservation again and again unfairly. They feel that they should be privileged because their ancestors have suffered and they will never let go of this reservation.

独立后,为了增加低种姓人群在社会中的代表性,让他们对抗种姓制度的不公,政府引入了预留制度。但如今,这些种姓中的人一次又一次不公平地使用预留制。他们觉得他们应该享有特权,因为他们的祖先遭受过苦难,他们永远不会放弃这种预留制。

On the other hand, (so called) upper caste people are crying because of their losses due to reservation. Today these people want to call themselves backward or lower caste just to get reservation. We can look at the Jat movement in Rajsthan, Patels in Gujrat, Marathas in Maharashtra. All these castes are considered to have major representation in their own states.

But they still want to be called backward.

另一方面,(所谓的)高种姓的人因为他们由于预留制遭受到损失而痛哭。今天,这些人希望称自己为落后或低种姓,只是为了得到预留制。我们可以看看拉京桑的贾特运动,古吉拉特邦的帕特尔运动,马哈拉施特拉邦的马拉塔运动。所有这些种姓都被认为在自己的邦里是主要群体。但他们仍然希望被称为落后种姓。

Reservation, which was introduced to reduce the gap between different castes, has itself become a poison dividing the society.

为了缩小不同种姓之间的差距而引入的预留制,本身就成了使社会分裂的毒药。

Thus, people will never let go of the caste sy em to eat the fruits of reservation and reservation will not end until the caste sy em is vanished. It has become a deadlock.

因此,人们永远不会为了预留制的果实而放弃种姓制度,只有种姓制度消失,预留制才会结束。这已经成为一个僵局。

So it is safe to say that caste sy em won't ever vanish from India.

因此,可以说种姓制度永远不会从印度消失。

 

Vishal Nagula, Indian by birth

Answer is a partial YES. We are still following the older caste sy em only with very less changes made in them. But today, in 21 century things have changed a lot but caste sy em is not much updated.

答案是部分肯定。我们仍然遵循着旧的种姓制度,只是很少做些改变。但是今天,在21世纪,事情发生了很大的变化,但是种姓制度并没有太多的更新。

Mainly people who are pursuing education are suffering due to this sy em. According to me this sy em should be modified because there are SC people who are quite rich and also general people who sometimes can't even afford bread and butter. So the modification has to be done to eliminate this biasness. And in some crucial fields like education and medical this sy em has to be removed completely.

那些受过高等教育的人因为这个系统而受苦。在我看来,这个系统应该进行调整,因为有些表列种姓的人很富有,也有些普通人有时连面包和黄油都买不起。所以必须进行调整来消除这种偏见。在一些重要的领域,如教育和医疗,这个系统必须被完全移除。

 

Mani Duraisamy, Po itically (In)Correct

Because caste sy em is different from sl very

因为种姓制度不同于奴制

Slavery has got profit motives. Humans were traded as commodities with a price tag attached to them. Caste sy em never works like that. The question likens the Shudras to velleins, helots and Negroes. This is wrong. True, there was and is institutionalized discrimination practiced ag inst Shudras- but some wont call it discrimination, rather we would call it 'culture' and 'personal fre m' when we refuse to rent room to a certain caste. But thats a different topic altogether.

奴制有盈利的动机。人类被当作商品进行交易,并附有价格标签。种姓制度从不会这样运作。这个问题把首陀罗兄弟比作维林人、海洛人和黑人。这是错误的。诚然,过去和现在都有针对首陀罗的制度化歧视,但有些人不会称之为歧视,相反,当我们拒绝向某个种姓提供空间时,我们会称之为“文化”和“个人自由”。但这是完全不同的话题。

Anyway, coming to the main question: Why cant caste sy em vanish from India?. Because caste is an identity- an occupational identity. I have not seen any Shudra being traded by upper-castes. I dont think we have sunk so low as that-( I would love to be contradicted though). Shudras get paid based on the work they do. Inequality is a part of life and its needed for the flow of wealth, privileges and education. But when its forced upon us ag inst our free will, then thats discrimination. The problem comes when they are not allowed to grow up further and move in to other professions, or that they dont get enough opportunities to further their career prospects. This is where discrimination begins.

无论如何,回到主要问题:为什么种姓制度不能从印度消失?这是因为种姓是一种身份——一种职业身份。我没有见过上层种姓和首陀罗交换。我不认为我们已经堕落到那样的地步——(尽管我希望被反驳)。首陀罗的工资是根据他们的工作而定的。不平等是生活的一部分,是财富、特权和教育流动的需要。但当它违背我们的自由意志强加于我们身上时,那就是歧视。当他们不被允许进一步成长并进入其他行业,或者他们没有足够的机会进一步发展他们的职业前景时,问题就产生了。这就是歧视开始的地方。

The Brits when they were ruling us ned how , the Dalits, women and other minorities were so under-represented. Thus they introduced the concept of Communal Award

当英国人统治我们时,他们注意到,达利特、女性和其他族裔的比例是如此之低。因此,他们引入了社群裁决的概念

As a result of the Third Round Table Conference, in November 1932, the then Prime Minister of Britain Ramsay Macdonald gave his 'award', known as the Communal Award. It provided separate representation for the Forward Caste, Lower Caste, Mus ms, Buddhists, Sikhs, Indian Chr tians, Anglo-Indians, Europeansand Dalits. The Untouchables were assigned a number of seats to be filled by ion from special constituencies in which Untouchables could ve.

因此,在1932年11月召开第三次圆桌会议时,当时的英国首相拉姆齐·麦克唐纳颁布了他的“判决”,即社群裁决,分别设立了高种姓、低种姓、、佛教徒、锡克教徒、印度基督徒、盎格鲁-印度人、欧洲人和达利人的单独的代表。不可触碰的贱民获得了一些席位,可以通过特殊选区的投票来确定人选。

This was later modified into the present reservation sy em- which aims to bring proportional representation of castes in academic and educational spheres.

这后来演变成了目前的预留制,旨在学术和教育领域中实现种姓比例的代表制。

In summary: Caste sy em cant vanish from India, because its a social hierarchy and a unique identity. Its the birth-based discrimination and prejudice we have to target- not the identity.

总之:种姓制度不可能从印度消失,因为它是一种社会等级制度和独特的身份。我们必须针对的是基于出生的歧视和偏见,而不是身份。

I dont agree with some answers here which says reservation fuels the caste divide. Caste divisions were present long before the British came here and will be there in the future also.

我不同意这里的一些回答,说预留制助长了种姓的分化。种姓分裂早在英国人来到这里之前就存在了,将来也会继续存在。

And reservations - though a flawed sy em needs to be modified, is the best solution that our law-makers could come up with to improve the representation of castes.

另外,预留制——尽管是一个存在缺陷的制度,需要改进,但这是我们的立法者能够想出的改善种姓代表的最佳解决方案了。

 

Vishwajeet Joshi, bjp loyalist , India Observer .

To answer this question, an understanding of caste sy em and factors that affected it is necessary . Hence I will try to provide a brief according to my understanding. I would request readers to correct me if they feel any information presented is baseless or untrue.

要回答这个问题,了解种姓制度和影响它的因素是很有必要的。因此,我将尝试根据我的理解提供一个概要。如果读者认为所提供的任何信息是没有根据的或不真实的,请纠正我。

The Indian Caste Sy em did not originate in its 18th or 19th Century rigid form. It is a sy em which metamorphosized itself into the Evil as we identify it .

印度的种姓制度并非是起源于18或19世纪的死板形式。

When Caste sy em originated in Vedic period it was merely a classification of Profession with a goal of maintaining order in Society while pursuing self realization leading to  a chance to attain Moksha for everyone.

当种姓制度起源于吠陀时期时,它仅仅是一种职业分类,目的是维持社会秩序,同时追求自我实现,从而为每个人获得轮回的解脱。

Nobody was born a Shudra or Brahmin .It was a profession of choice. Equating Shudras to sl ves is incorrect as nobody chooses to be sl ve.The caste sy em derives from the Karma Siddhanta which professes that an individual can attain enlightenment by doing his duty with complete devotion.

没有人天生是首陀罗或婆罗门,这是一种特别的职业。把首陀罗等同于奴是不正确的,因为没有人愿意成为奴。种姓制度源自业力,它宣称一个人可以通过全身心地完成他的职责而获得开悟。

Yagya was a elaborate ceremony performed many times in the Vedic age and was believed to be invocation of GOD.  Performing Yaga was believed to be way of pleasing GODS and gaining favor or Virtue which lead to Peace , Prosperity and ultimately Moksha for the participating individuals.  Members from each Varna contributed to this and the Virtue  (or Fruit or Result of Yagya) obtained would then be distributed equally to all involved.

雅格雅是在吠陀时代多次举行的精心制作的仪式,被认为是对神的祈祷。表演瑜伽被认为是取悦神和获得恩惠或美德的一种方式,它能带来和平、繁荣,并最终为参与其中的个人带来轮回的解脱。来自各个种姓的成员对此做出了贡献,而雅格雅所获得的美德(或果实或结果)将被平均分配给所有相关人等。

The 4 Varnas or castes differ in the percentage of  involvement in the materialistic world and how they contributed to Yagya.

因在物质世界的参与比例和他们对雅格雅的贡献不同,四种不同的种姓有所不同。

Bramhan would be a sect of people who would study scriptures and aim for enlightment by means of Knowledge or higher learning . They were expected to not aim for lavish lifestyle or wealth

婆罗门是一个研究典经的族派,目的是通过知识或高深学问来启迪他人。他们不应该追求奢华的生活方式或财富

Bramhins being extremely poor. Bramhans studied Vedas and performed Yagya by  chanting  vedic hyms that pleased the GODs.

婆罗门极度贫穷。婆罗门研究吠陀,唱吠陀赞美诗来取悦众神。

Kshatriyas would be sect of people who would be more involved in the Worldly matters compared to Bramhan , they were allowed to collect Wealth and enjoy Royal life but with the caveat of being able to renounce everything in a moment when time beckons and be ready for WAR. Kshatriya provided for the Security and disciplined and safe environment in which Yagya could be performed.

刹帝利是一个比婆罗门更关注世俗事务的族派,他们可以收集财富,享受皇室生活,但他们需要牢记告诫,那就是当时间召唤时,他们需要放弃一切准备战争。刹帝利护卫了国家安全,维持纪律和安全的环境,雅格雅得以顺利进行。

Vaishyas would be a sect of people who would indulge in Trade and accumulate wealth .Their duty involved generating revenue and distributing the wealth to the needy and  contributing to GDP. Vaishya helped to finance the Yagya ceremony .

吠舍族派会沉迷于贸易和积累财富,他们的职责包括创造收入,将财富分配给穷人,并为GDP做出贡献。吠舍帮助资助雅格雅仪式。

Shudras were a sect of people who would be totally involved in materialistic world. They were supposed to perform all the day to day task of maintaining cleanliness , constructing houses, doing agriculture, other profession like Blacksmith, cobbler ,potter , Scavengers etc. They would contribute to Yagya by arranging all items for the ceremony including food and goods.

首陀罗是一群完全卷入物质世界的人。他们每天都要做清洁工作,盖房子,做农活,还有其他的职业,比如铁匠、补鞋匠、陶工、拾荒者等等。他们会为雅格雅仪式安排一切,包括食物和物品,为雅格雅做出贡献。

Hence Shudra were equals performing an  important function in the society and hence were not be treated as Slaves.

因此,首陀罗在社会中发挥着是平等的重要的作用,因此没有被当作奴对待。

However, like any sy em the Caste Sy em was not designed for drastic changes that would occur over a period of 2500 years.  In due course of time due environmental factors ( like Epidemics, Contagious diseases at an era when vaccination was not available)  untouchability  became a part of Caste Sy em.

然而,就像任何一种制度一样,种姓制度并不是为持续2500年的巨变而设计的。随着时间的推移,由于环境因素(比如在没有接种疫苗的时代会出现流行病,传染病),贱民身份成为种姓制度的一部分。

Since Shudra would be the sect of people who would be involved in Cleaning and hence more exposed to unclean environment , members of other Sect started to ill treat them.  The entire concept of Virtue and Karma Siddhanta gave way to illogical traditions and customs and eventually blind belief.

由于首陀罗是那些从事清洁工作的人,因此更容易接触不干净的环境,其他种族的成员开始虐待他们。整个美德和因果报应的观念,被不合逻辑的传统和习俗所取代,最终变成了盲目的信仰。

Hindu society hence started to crumble and other re gions became more attractive .

因此,印度教社会开始崩溃,其他宗教变得更有吸引力。

My whole point is Shudra were important part of society and equals and not to be compared with Slaves.  The Utopian concept of equality  is not correct as we are all inequals in our mental , physical and financial capabilities.

我的观点是,首陀罗是社会的重要组成部分,是平等的,不能与奴相提并论。乌托邦式的平等理想是不正确的,因为我们在心理、生理和经济能力上都是不平等的。

三泰虎原创译文,禁止转载!:首页 > 印度 » 既然世界上已经不存在奴隶制了,为何印度的种姓制度还未消失呢?

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