三泰虎

为什么印度造航母速度没中国快? 印网友感慨: 很钦佩他们的技术和执行能力

Why can’t India build its own aircraft carrier ships at the same speed as China?

为什么印度不能以中国一样的速度建造自己的航母呢?

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QUORA网站读者评论:

来源:三泰虎 http://www.santaihu.com/45802.html 译者:Joyceliu

外文链接:https://www.quora.com/Why-can-t-India-build-its-own-aircraft-carrier-ships-at-the-same-speed-as-China

JIasheng Xu

Because India are too quick and too happy to build or do any other thing.

When Indians are working, they’re still dancing in their mind. It makes the Indian minds very quick but bloody unobservant and unfocused.

I advise the Indians to think over some extremely miserable moment in their life before they start to do some jobs so they could keep a peaceful and quiet heart.

因为印度人太敏捷,太开心,以至于无法建造或做任何其他事情。

当印度人在工作的时候,他们的心里仍然在跳舞。它使印度人的头脑非常敏捷,但非常不专心。

我建议印度人在开始做事之前,先回忆一下他们生命中一些极其悲惨的时刻,这样他们就能保持一颗平和、平静的心。

Aakash Ranga

China has refined the science of construction and building to an art form. As an Indian I truly admire their skills and ability to execute. You guys are the best at the moment.

中国已经把建筑科学和建筑艺术升华成一种艺术。作为一个印度人,我真的很钦佩他们的技术和执行能力。你们是当今世上最棒的人。

Hanqing Zhao, studied at New York University

China did not build its own aircraft carrier at all.

Those ships are just some fishing boats that were camouflaged like aircraft carriers.

Indians think that they really are warships? Don’t be fooled by Chinese media.

中国根本没有建造自己的航空母舰。

那些船只是一些渔船伪装成航母罢了。

印度人真的认为它们是军舰吗?不要被中国媒体愚弄了。

Anuj, former Engineer

Answer in one line -Corruption.

Example- we purchase INS Jalashwa from America, America used the ship for 25 yrs and India purchase the ship in new ship price. Same thing happen with INS Vikarmaditya (Ex Russia Admiral Gorshkov), we purchase this ship in the price that they would give us new Aircraft Carrier

用一句话回答——附败。

举个例子—我们从美国购买了拉什瓦号,这艘船已经被美国用了25年了,但印度用新船的价格购买了这艘船。同样的事情发生在维卡马蒂亚号上(前俄罗斯海军上将戈尔什科夫号),我们购买这艘船的价格,都能买到全新的航空母舰了。

Simon B, lives in China (2014-present)

I don’t know much about this specifically but I know that Chinese build stuff fast at a great sacrifice to quality. They are famous for developing so fast in just 20 years but everything built was very poor quality indeed. Houses and buildings less than 10 years old seem more like 70 years old. The whole sewage and drainage system in every city is so bad that if it rains even for a little while there is always flooding - especially in the north.

我对这一点了解不多,但我知道中国人以牺牲质量为代价来实现快速生产。他们以20年快速发展而闻名,但所有的建筑质量都很差。不到10年的房子和建筑物看起来像是70年的老房子。每个城市的污水和排水系统都很糟糕,哪怕只下一会儿雨,总会发生洪水——尤其是在北方更是如此。

China is pretty well known for making cheap products that break after a very short time. This is true even today. They make everything from small products to huge buildings in the same way so I’m sure the aircraft carriers are no different.

中国以生产寿命很短的廉价产品而闻名。即使在今天也还是如此。他们以同样的方式制造从小型产品到大型建筑的一切东西,所以我相信他们的航空母舰也一样。

Amar Pat, former B.d Executive at Tradeindia

Budgetary restraints
Wespons building infrastructure not up to the mark.(though growing up at snails pace)
Skilled tecnicians , workers are numbered.
And the biggest reason i would list as lack of defense engineeing courses in educational instutions that are failing to provide any bedrock for the interested candidates who are looking forward to make their career in weapons and machinery building.

1.预算限制

2.我们建造的基础设施达不到标准。(虽然是以蜗牛速度进行)

3.熟练的技术人员,工人都是屈指可数的。

我认为最主要的原因是缺乏国防工程方面的教育课程,这些课程无法为那些对武器和机械制造感兴趣的人提供任何基础知识。

Glenn Lee, works at Northern California

Aircraft carriers are used to project power. The US needs to project power and the US navy operates far from home; the US needs aircraft carriers. China and India should not waste their resources on aircraft carriers . Does India or China need to project power in the Black Sea? Mediterranean? the Atlantic? etc.?

航空母舰是为了秀肌肉的。美国需要展现实力,美国海军在远离本土的地方作战;美国确实需要航母。中国和印度不应该在航母上浪费资源。印度和中国需要在黑海投射实力?或地中海?还是大西洋诸如此类的地方?

India and China should finalize their mutual borders, sign a non aggression treaty with each other and with Russia, sign a free trade treaty with each other and with Russia.

印度和中国应该敲定边界,彼此和俄罗斯签署互不侵犯条约,彼此和俄罗斯签署紫游贸易条约。

The enemy of India and China is poverty, inadequate public services, diseases, inadequate nutrition. Surely their enemy is not each other; their media should stop their war mongering activities.

印度和中国的敌人是贫困、公共服务不足、疾病和营养不良。他们的敌人不是彼此;他们的媒体应该停止散布战争情绪的活动。

It does not matter how fast a aircraft carrier can be built if aircraft carriers are not needed.

如果根本都不需要航母,那么建造航母的速度其实并不重要。

Lokesh Meena, B.Tech Electronics and Communication Engineering, Malaviya National Institute of Technology, Jaipur

When you speak of a ship class, in context of China it means at least 20–30 ships while in case of India it’s usually mean 3–6 ships in a class. If a Indian shipyard starts churning out a destroyer in 2 years instead of 6, it would remain dry for years and that’s bad for both equipment and workforce. As for construction techniques, all new ships are modular in design which is the latest trend in shipbuilding.

当你说到舰级,在中国,它的意思是至少20-30艘船,而在印度,通常是3-6艘。如果印度船厂在两年内开始生产驱逐舰,而不是六年内,很久都不能下水,这对设备和工人都是不利的。在建造技术方面,所有的新船在设计上都是模块化的,这是造船的最新趋势。

Indian content in ships usually hover between 60–90%. Initially, kolkata, kamorta and Vikrant faced problems in sourcing the materials because DMR249 steel and CFC manufacturing facilities weren’t there in India but now they are.

船上使用的印度材料含量通常在60-90%之间徘徊。起初,加尔各答、卡莫尔塔和维克兰特在采购材料时遇到了问题,因为DMR249钢铁和CFC制造工厂并不在印度,但现在它们都在印度生产了。

There are around 45 ships under construction in more than a dozen shipyards, if India was looking to build a navy as large as that of China or USA, it would no doubt work the shipyards double time, but that’s not the case.

在十几个造船厂里有大约45艘正在建造的船只,如果印度想要建立一只和中国或美国一样大的海军舰队,无疑会使造船厂加倍工作,但事实并非如此。

Frank Zako, Mental traveler

Just look at one thing, an aircraft carrier like type 001A has about 800 million parts of all kinds. China can make all of them with speed and quatlity. Just ask how many of them can be made in India and how soon?

只需看一件小事就能看出端倪,一艘像001A型的航空母舰大约有8亿个不同的部件。中国可以保质保量地快速制造出所有这些东西。但有多少能在印度生产,多久能生产出来呢?

One step further, UN report shows that China is the only country with complete industrial base. This means China can make everything on its own. In a strict sense, India cannot build its own aircraft carrier since many key systems such radar, airplane for the carrier, and many advanced electronic systems have to be imported.

联合国的报告进一步表明,中国是唯一一个拥有完整工业基础的国家。这意味着中国可以自己制造一切。从严格意义上讲,印度无法建造自己的航空母舰,因为许多关键系统,如雷达、航空母舰的飞机和许多先进的电子系统都必须依赖进口。

Indians are known for being late and very late for work and meetings, they are on the very top of the chart in the world in this dimension. They think everyone else have the same work pace. If you can’t see the very basic difference like this, how could you possibly pick up the speed?

印度人以工作和开会总是迟到而出名,在这个维度上,他们是世界无敌的。他们还认为其他人的工作节奏也是如此。如果你意识不到这样的基础差别,你怎么可能加快速度呢?

Robert Clouse, Disable Veteran at Cincinnati, OH (2000-present)

China hasn't build it's own carrier yet! It has bought 4 ex-carriers (since 1985), and the carrier it uses now is the converted Soviet aircraft carrier Varyag (Kuznetsov class), bought in 1998!

中国并没有建造自己的航母!它购买了4艘旧航母(自1985年以来),现在使用的航母是1998年购买的前su联瓦良格号航母(库兹涅佐夫级)!

Through various ventures, China has also purchased the ex-Soviet carriers Minsk and Kiev. These carriers have become floating amusement parks for tourists.

通过各种投资,中国还购买了前su联航母明斯克号和基辅号。这些航母已经成为游客的水上游乐园。

It next Chinese Carrier, home built, was started in the mid 2010′s, and isn't expected to be operational until 2023!

国产的中国航母,于2010年代中期开始建造,预计到2023年才能真的使用!

Starting when the Chinese bought the Australian HMAS Melbourne, in 1985, it wasn't until 2011 the Chinese had a carrier at sea, but they didn't land a aircraft in it until November 2012!

从1985年中国人购买澳大利亚HMAS墨尔本号开始,直到2011年中国才在海上行驶航母,但直到2012年11月他们才在航母上面成功着陆飞机!

The Indian carrier, the Vikrant-class, was started from scratch in 2009, and expected to be operational in 2018, 9 years later. The Chinese Carrier is converted Soviet carrier bought in 1998, and still not operational until 2012, 14 years later!

印度的维克兰特级航空母舰在2009年从零开始,预计在9年后的2018年投入使用。中国航母是1998年购买的前su联航母,直到14年后的2012年才投入使用。

BTW, the Chinese carriers are basically the equal to WW2 light carriers, holding about 40 aircraft at the most!

顺便说一句,中国航母基本上相当于二战时期的轻型航母,最多也只能容纳40架飞机!

Yuqi Liu, studied at University of Copenhagen

To answer this question we can have a look at the civilian shipbuilding capacity of both China and India. Here is the statistics from 2016: Largest shipbuilding nations based on gross tonnage 2016 | Ranking. China together with the South Korea build the world's most civilian ship. However, i cannot see India in this chart.

要回答这个问题,我们可以看看中国和印度的民用造船能力。以下是2016年的数据:根据2016年总吨位排名得出的最大的造船国。中国和韩国共同建造了世界上最多的民用船只。然而,我无法在这张图表中看到印度的踪影。

Although the civilian shipbuilding capacity only counts for part of the military ship building capacity but it still help China trained the experienced workers and engineers, improve the building process and also solve many unseen problems during the building. Building enough civilian ship will do help you boost your ability to build military ship more efficiency.

虽然民用造船能力只是军用船舶建造能力的一部分,但它仍然帮助中国培训了有经验的工人和工程师,改善了建造过程,也解决了建造过程中许多看不见的问题。建造足够多的民用船将有助于提高建造军用船的能力,提高效率。

The other thing i would like to point out is that, the recently finished aircraft carrier is based on the old Varyag class (Type 001A) which is a refurbished one. China bought this ship from Ukraine together with tons of design paper. And then China begun its first domestic build carrier (Type 002), the previous experience for refurbishing the 001A will help China to boost its building speed.

我想指出的另一件事是,中国最近完成的航空母舰是基于老瓦良格级(001A型)的翻新航母。中国从乌克兰购买了这艘船以及成吨的设计图纸。然后中国开始了建造第一艘国产航母(002型),先前整修001A的经验将帮助中国提高它的建造速度。

In conclusion, China is way better in civilian shipbuilding than India, China has more experience on aircraft carrier building and the third one is that China have the full supply chain of aircraft building from radar to engine.

综上所述,中国在民用造船方面要比印度先进得多,中国在航空母舰建造方面有更多的经验,第三是中国拥有从雷达到发动机的飞机制造的完整供应链。

Sashank Reddy, works at Neato Robotics

Budgets & Finances.

预算和财政。

The Navy needs a fleet sizeof over 200 ships with primary purpose being anti ship and anti submarine in addition strategic deterrence. The aircraft carrier is an offensive platform and an expensive one at that. The current Vikrant under construction has already exceeded $4 billion. That’s a major chunk of money sunk into one ship. We get a lot of sensitive equipment imported and they cost in $ which means we are paying costs like the US and Europe with Indian defense budget.

海军需要一只超过200艘船只的舰队,主要目的是反舰和反潜艇以及战略威慑。航空母舰是一个进攻性的平台,而且是一个烧钱的平台。目前在建的维克兰特航母已经耗费了40多亿美元。这对单艘船来说是一大笔钱。我们进口了很多敏感设备,它们的成本是按美元计价,这意味着我们要用印度的国防预算来支付美国和欧洲的成本。

For the same $4 billion, we can get 4 - 5 modern destroyers or frigates or 9 - 12 conventional attack submarines or 7 nuclear submarines. This is the reason aircraft carriers are frowned upon. You can an entire fleet for the price of 5 carriers. In fact, with enough modern submarines, one can easily challenge an aircraft carrier fleet. Submarines are deadly to a carrier. This makes the carriers very expensive losses in war. Indian Navy does not need too many carriers at this point as it operates more or less in its own back yard. Island bases help more than carriers.

同样的40亿美元,我们可以得到4 - 5艘现代驱逐舰或护卫舰,或9 - 12艘常规攻击型潜艇或7艘核潜艇。这就是航母不受欢迎的原因。你可以以5艘航母的价格搞定整个舰队。事实上,有了足够多的现代化潜艇,人们可以轻易地挑战航母舰队。潜艇对航母来说是致命的。这使得航母在战争中损失惨重。印度海军目前并不需要太多航母,因为它或多或少都是在自己的后院作战。岛屿基地比航母更有帮助。

We are building 45 ships at once. Our capacity for construction is pretty good. Many new private players have entered the industry as well. Its only mater of will and more importantly funding.

我们同时还在建造45艘船。我们的建设能力很好。许多新的私营企业也进入了这个行业。决心是唯一的关键,当然了更重要的是资金。

Akshay Shah, studied Bachelor of Science in Computer Science at Osmania University

Hello,

Thanks for asking.While I understand that India and China are perceived to be pitted against each other, so this kind of analogy is expected.

So a gentle disclaimer, to all my fellow Indians is to not be jingoistic about this.

你好,

谢谢提问。虽然我知道印度和中国被认为是对立的,所以这种类比是可以理解的。

因此,对我所有的印度同胞,我有一个温和的免责声明,不要在这件事上持强硬态度。

Chinese economy is a 12.2 Trillion economy against 2.4 Trillion Indian economy. So all this means is that India cant match up to China vis a vis clout & money power.

1.中国经济体量是12.2万亿美元,而印度是2.4万亿美元。所以这一切意味着印度在实力和金钱实力上无法与中国匹敌。

Chinese style of functioning is pretty clear.Grow and outgrow , outnumber , overwhelm the opponent. So in this pursuit they have put Defence on the top most areas of investment more so in the last 20 years.India on the other hand seems to be grappling with building a 30+ year old prototype called Tejas. So, policy making and approach is all that seems flawed in India’s case. When go nments change policy changes in latters case unlike the former which has unity in command and direction.

2.中国的运作方式很明显。发展、赶超、压倒对手。因此,在过去20年里,他们把对国防的投资放在了最重要的地位。另一方面,印度似乎正在努力打造一款30多年前的光辉战机。因此,在印度看来,政策制定和方法都是有缺陷的。当政府改变政策时,政策的变化与前者不同,后者在指挥和方向上是统一的。

Innovation and Indigenization is where both countries are at a different trajectory.While the Indian trajectory is to procure foreign equipment so first there has to be a RFP, followed by political intervention, followed by negotiation with the seller or seller nation.Then there is the great filthy Indian middlemen angle.Finally you get the equipment. By the time it arrives the technology isnt dated anymore or somewhat redundant.On the other hand China is completely indigenous from a hair pin to building an aeroplane.The only defence equipment that they seem to be still comprehending is a jet engine. Other than that China seems more or less a nation that has a local industry that caters to its defence needs.

3.创新和本土化是两国不同的发展轨迹。印度的发展轨迹是购买外国设备,所以首先必须有采购建议书,然后是政治干预,然后是与卖方或卖方国家进行谈判。还有一个肮脏的印度中间人。最后你终于拿到了设备。可等设备来的时候,这项技术已经过时或者有些多余了。另一方面,从发夹到飞机的制造,中国完全是本土的。他们唯一不太拿手的国防设备是喷气发动机。除此之外,中国似乎已经是一个拥有满足其国防需求的本土产业的国家。

Indian capability in ship building is restricted because of decades of political lathargy,lack of infrastructure,indecisive decision making , limited skilled and semi skilled workforce. Moreover there is severe cash crunch as most of the fund allocation is utilized for maintaining the armed forces.

4.印度的造船能力受到了限制,原因是数十年来的政治拖沓、基础设施缺乏、决策优柔寡断、熟练和半熟练工人数量有限。此外,由于大部分资金用于维持武装部队,因此出现了严重的现金短缺。

The above are few reasons while there are a number of other reasons.

Hope this helps.

以上是一些原因,但还有很多其他原因。

希望我的回答对你有帮助。

JC Hóu, Very VERY amateur military enthusiast

This is going to be a brief answer where I will simply list the reasons broadly and as neutrally as I can:

我来做一个简短的回答,我会简单地列出广泛而中立的原因:

The Indian standard for shipbuilding and especially military shipbuilding has always been relatively slower. Usually for destroyers (the backbone of most medium to large navies) India takes around 10 years from laying down to commissioning one. I don't know what procedures caused this but it seems consistent and likely systematic, while for China in the recent two decades the span for building a destroyer is usually well within 5 years (also from laying down to commissioning). So it shouldn't be a surprise that for aircraft carriers the situation is similar.

1.印度造船标准,尤其是军用造船标准发展得一直相对较慢。通常对于驱逐舰(大多数中型到大型海军的骨干)来说,印度从部署到调试一艘驱逐舰大约需要10年的时间。我不知道是什么程序造成的,但可能是系统性的,而对于中国来说,在最近20年里建造驱逐舰的时间周期通常在5年内(包括从部署到调试)。因此,对于航空母舰来说,情况类似也就不足为奇了。

Chinese ships almost all use domestically-built equipment. No negotiation, procurement, evaluation, etc. with foreign parties was needed for the recently-launched Type-002 (known to some as the Type-001A) carrier. The Type-001 kept a lot of the existing Soviet design (although most of the equipment was removed way back) and they have reportedly changed much of that from radar to propulsion, because they can and want to…

The Vikrant for India seems to use quite some foreign equipment, and it does not help those equipment need more time for integration also. The Vishal should rely on foreign components even more because it will be (reportedly) nuclear-powered and equipped with catapults, which seem almost certainly to be imported or "jointly done".

2.中国船只几乎都使用国产设备。最近推出的002型(有些人称之为001a型)航母不需要与外国方进行谈判、采购、评估等。001型保留了许多现有的su联设计(尽管大部分设备都是在很久以前就被拆除了),据报道他们从雷达到推进装置,大部分设计都已做了改良,因为他们有能力而且有决心这么做……

印度的维克兰特似乎使用了相当多的外国设备,这些设备需要更多的时间进行整合。夏尔马应该更加依赖外国零件,因为它将(据报道)配备核动力和弹射器,而这些看起来几乎肯定都得是进口或“联合制造的”。

Fully-integrated supply chain. No need to elaborate about this. This is the norm for China from most military equipment to the household appliance industry.

3.基础供应链。没有必要详细说明。中国从军事装备到家电行业都是如此。

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