三泰虎

印度专家:如果我们感觉受忽视,那正是中国人想要的

三泰虎5月21日译文,印度Rediff网18日文章,原题《如果我们感觉受忽视,那恰恰是中国人想要的》。Datta-Ray在文章中称,看清中国人每一句言辞背后的阴险企图只会令协商和解变得更困难。他称,我们在与中国打交道时必须谨慎。中国社科院最近发布的《蓝皮书》里令人宽心的保证不应当从表面上接受。李在1986年访问印度时的情感回忆不会改变解放军的目标。但是看清中国人每一句言辞背后的阴险企图只会令协商和解变得更困难。

译文来源:三泰虎 http://bbs.santaihu.com/thread-6525-1-1.html
外文标题:If we feel ignored, that's exactly what the Chinese want
外文地址:http://www.rediff.com/news/column/if-we-feel-ignored-thats-exactly-what-the-chinese-want/20130518.htm


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Seeing a sinister design behind every Chinese utterance will only make it more difficult to negotiate a settlement

Listening to a retired major-general thunder at a seminar that China plans to dismember India reminded me of Manmohan Singh bemoaning in the early days of liberalisation that people were accusing him of selling out to foreign interests.

“Who would want to buy this country anyway,” P V Narasimha Rao retorted drily. Nevertheless, it wouldn’t surprise me if black flags and protest demos greet Li Keqiang on Sunday. The police won’t let it happen. But thanks to the revanchist sentiment the major-general fanned, the urge exists.

看清中国人每一句言辞背后的阴险企图只会令协商和解变得更困难。

在一场研讨会上倾听一位退役少将怒吼“中国计划肢解印度”,令我想起了曼莫汉·辛格在经济自由化早期叹息人们指责他向外国出卖国家利益。

P V Narasimha Rao冷淡地反驳称,“谁会想要买这个国家。”然而,如果李克强周日来访时遇到黑旗和抗议游行,那么我不会意外。警察不会让这个发生,但是多亏了这位少将煽动的复仇主义情绪,这种冲动是存在的。

Of course, we must be cautious in dealing with China. The soothing assurances in the Blue Book the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences released recently need not be accepted at face value. Li’s sentimental memories of touring India in 1986 will not change the Peoples Liberation Army’s objectives. But seeing a sinister design behind every Chinese utterance will only make it more difficult to negotiate a settlement.

If we lack a sense of history, the timeless Chinese merge past, present and future in a seamless continuum. Zhou Enlai famously replied, “It’s too soon to tell” when asked about the impact of the French Revolution. Mao Zedong told his commanders before the 1962 war that China had already fought “one and a half” wars in India. The first was in the seventh century when Tang dynasty troops helped to reinstate an Indian king whom a usurper had ousted. Mao regarded Tamerlane’s sack of Delhi in 1398 as the second. The Daulat Beg Oldi episode must be assessed in the context of such precedents.

当然,我们在与中国打交道时必须谨慎。中国社科院最近发布的《蓝皮书》里令人宽心的保证不应当从表面上接受。李在1986年访问印度时的情感回忆不会改变解放军的目标。但是看清中国人每一句言辞背后的阴险企图只会令协商和解变得更困难。

如果说我们缺少历史观,那么永恒的中国人将过去、现在和未来无缝地融合起来。当被问及法国革命的影响时,周恩来给出了著名的回答,他说“一切还为时尚早”;1962年中印战争前,毛泽东对他的指挥官说,中国已经在印度打了“一场半”的战争。第一场是7世纪时唐军帮助一位被篡位者驱逐的印度国王恢复王位。毛泽东将帖木儿1398年洗劫德里视为第二场战争。

A second point to remember is that despite all we read about Communism and the PLA’s iron grip, China is not culturally monolithic. A frivolous but not inaccurate interpretation of the Chinese saying “Shan gao, huang di yuan (the mountain is high and the emperor far away)” would be “when the cat’s away, the mice play!”

I heard it first in connection with what looked like a gigantic Chinese fraud over the $30-billion Suzhou Industrial Park that was Singapore’s prize project in China. Soon after it was launched in 1994 the Chinese took the Singaporeans for a ride by naming a nearby state-owned park Suzhou and encouraging investors to believe they were investing in the Singaporean project. Singapore lost about $90 million by the end of 2000 but Lee Kuan Yew didn’t blame the central government. He blamed internal competition and the autonomy Chinese states enjoy. They even enjoy some foreign policy powers, explaining the Yunnan governor’s visit to Kolkata to encourage trade and tourism.

第二点要记住的是,纵然我们对共产主义和解放军铁腕压制的了解,中国在文化上并非是大一统的。对“山高皇帝远”这句中国谚语的肤浅但非错误的解读是“猫儿不在耗子闹”!

投资总额300亿美元的苏州工业园是新加坡在中国的主要项目,我是从这桩看似中国人的巨大欺诈中头一回听说这个理的。苏州工业园在1994年推出后,中国人欺骗了新加坡人,在附近又冠名了一个国家工业园,并鼓励投资者相信他们在投资新加坡项目。截止2000年底,新加坡损失了大约9000万美元,但李光耀并没有怪中央政府,而是怪内部竞争和中国各省享受的自治权,他们甚至享有一些外交政策的权利,并以云南省长访问加尔各答以鼓励贸易和旅游作为解释。

Third, everything depends on perception. Even maps of Ladakh show a “Chinese Line of Perception” and an Indian “Line of Perception”. Of course, India’s perception is the truth. But it’s possible, as Lora Saalman, a Beijing-based sinologist who recently visited India, confirms, that Chinese perceptions mirror our concerns. They see India cozying up to their adversaries like Vietnam. They say India is trying to restrict Chinese initiatives in Bangladesh, and complain of Chinese nationals facing visa difficulties to work in (or even visit) India. Indian sponsorship of the Mekong-Ganga cooperation scheme eight years after the Asian Development Bank’s Greater Mekong Subregion scheme, in which China had a lead role, is mentioned.

第三,一切取决于认知。拉达克地图表现了中国人的“认知线”和印度人的“认知线”。当然,印度的认知是真理。正如最近访问印度的驻京中国通司乐如(Lora Saalman)所证实的,中国人的认知反映了我们的关注。他们目睹了印度取悦越南等他们的敌手。他们说印度试图限制中国在孟加拉国的行动,还抱怨中国公民在申请印度工作签证时面临困难。在亚洲开发银行倡议、中国主导的大湄公河次区域经济合作(GMS)机制推出8年后由印度发起的湄公河-恒河合作机制也被提及。

It’s said the Chinese despise India. If so, they devote a great deal of attention to a despised neighbour. Indians grumble that China’s press reports far less about India than Indian newspapers do about China. That doesn’t mean the Chinese know less about us. They just don’t broadcast what they know. There are only two or three Indian journalists in Beijing against a dozen Chinese in Delhi. “They’re spies!” says a Western diplomat. Spies collect and send back information. They aren’t sent to a country that is of no account. If we feel ignored, that’s exactly what the Chinese want.

据说中国人蔑视印度。如果这样的话,那么他们对受其鄙视的邻国投入了相当大的关注。印度人抱怨中国媒体对印度的报道要远少于印度媒体对中国的报道。这并不意味着中国人不了解我们,他们只是不宣传而已。北京只有两三名印度记者,而德里有十几位中国记者。有一位西方外交官说,“他们是间谍!”这些间谍负责收集和反馈信息,他们不是被派往一个不重要的国家。如果我们感觉受忽视,那恰恰是中国人想要的。

Sun Tzu’s advice was to keep the adversary guessing. “Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent’s fate.”

Finally, the fire-eating major-general should realise China can’t do without India’s market and raw materials. The $23-billion trade gap favours China. Shyam Saran acknowledges Chinese cooperation in climate change and trade negotiations, and says China respects India’s role in international forums.

So let’s welcome Li and try to patch up differences. But let us not be overwhelmed because he is coming to India first. He is doing so for the reasons explained above, not to oblige India.

孙子兵法的建议是使敌人深陷困惑,“微乎微乎,至于无形,神乎神乎,至于无声,故能为敌之司命”。

最后,咄咄逼人的少将应该认识到中国离不开印度的市场和原材料。230亿美元的贸易逆差对中国有利。希亚姆·萨兰(Shyam Saran)认可中国在气候变化和贸易谈判中的合作,同时称中国尊重印度在国际论坛上的作用。【三泰虎注:希亚姆·萨兰是印度前外交秘书长】

因此,让我们欢迎李的到访,并尽量化解分歧。但是不要因为他首访印度就受宠若惊。他是出于以上提到的原因而这样做的,而不是施恩于印度。

以下是印度网民的评论:


本文论坛地址:三泰虎论坛 http://bbs.santaihu.com/thread-6525-1-1.html



Wanted "Dragon Slayers"
by Doctor Snow

Once upon a time....
There lived a Dragon near a Village, that was killing People in that Village.

To avoid Destruction, the Village Leaders agreed with the Dragon to send one Villager to the Dragon Every Day....

从前....

一个村子边上住着一条龙,这条龙在屠戮这个村。

为了避免毁灭,村领导与这条龙达成一致,同意每天给这条龙送一位村民......

Bodh Ramdeo
by Bodh Ramdeo

.."Shyam Saran acknowledges Chinese cooperation in climate change and trade negotiations, and says China respects India’s role in international forums"...
What drivel...the mandarins couldn't care less what Indians think...they're seeking thier own national interests only...to that end they have co-opted and been using the idyots from elephantland to do their bidding, only to make it look like "cooperation".
And who's this Datta-Ray person anyways?? Rediff conveniently omitted this information....sounds like one of Jyoti Basu's gang.

“希亚姆·萨兰认可中国在气候变化和贸易谈判中的合作,同时称中国尊重印度在国际论坛上的作用”.......

中国人对印度人的想法再漠视不过了.....他们只是在追求自己国家的利益....为此,他们指派和利用了来自象之国度的白痴来执行任务,唯一的目的是使其看起来像是“合作”。 Datta-Ray这个人究竟是谁?Rediff图方便忽略了这个信息.......听起来像是乔迪·巴苏团伙之一。

【三泰虎注: Datta-Ray是本文作者,乔迪·巴苏是印度资深共产主义领袖】

India needs a leadership of professionals
by Ramadas Kathiru

The problem with India is it has a leadership of partimers; most of the time they are busy making sure that they can hold onto their positions by hook or crook. When it comes to dealing with devious nations like China they pee in their pants.

In the case of China, it is run by professional crooks. They even maintain an army of cyberhackers and spies. The companies they have in India and other countries are actually their intelligence setups.

印度的问题在于多党执政,他们多数时候不择手段地保住位置。一旦要应对中国这样的狡猾国家,就吓得尿裤子了。

至于中国嘛,一群专业骗子在管理。他们甚至维持着一支由黑客和间谍组成的军队,在印度以及其他国家设立的公司实际上是情报机构。

If we feel ignored, that's exactly what the Chinese want
by Hebbar R

What this Author says is true for any foreign country vis-a-vis India. But, the problem here is the total lack of diplomatic skills of the GOI. If India were to be diplomatically strong, there would not be any need to fear anyone. But, in the case of India, the sad situation is that India is not a favoured country even by its own neighbors. In such a situation, one cannot blame China if they want to take their own interests ahead.

作者说的适用于印度,也适用于其他国家。问题在于印度政府外交技能的完全缺失。印度要是外交强硬,那么就没有怕任何人的必要了。印度的糟糕局面在于其甚至不讨邻国喜欢。在这种情况下,如果邻国想推动自身利益,那么你不能怪中国。

India-China Border from 1947 to 2013
by Doctor Snow

Where was the Indo-China Actual Border in 1947, 1957, 1967, 1977, 1987, 1997, 2007

and would be in 2017?

1947年、1957、1967、1977、1987、1997、2007年等时候的印中实际边界在哪里?

2017年时又将在哪里?

India and China together
by Pankaj Rajput

"I hope the relation will improve between India and China because i have a lot of confidence on my congress government"

我希望印度和中国的关系会改善,因为我对国大党政府相当有信心。

PLS ban BJP
by Pankaj Rajput

"congress is better than BJP, I dont like bJP"

国大党比人民党更好,我不喜欢人民党。

Re: PLS ban BJP
by Hebbar R
Was there BJP when India lost to China? Please like or dislike any party, but please be subjective in your expressions.


印度输给中国时有人民党吗?你可以喜欢或者不喜欢任何政党,但表达要客观。



There was nothing
by Pankaj Rajput

"The china matter was nothing, BJP people has a habit dragging things and they just love to make issues"

中国不是个问题,人民党有办事拖拉的习惯,他们喜欢制造问题。

Re: There was nothing
by Ranjan Thirumalai
Your blind hate of BJP is senseless.


你对人民党的盲目讨厌是无意义的。



want open border in himalya
by SAI RAM

don't kill Indian culture

他们想在喜马拉雅山打开边界

别扼杀印度文化。

Pakistani generals spend a good part of their
by piri

time creating and sustaining the hype about the "threat from India". This they do to continue appropriating a big chunk of the Pak national budgetary allocations for themselves in the name of defence.

Similarly, many in the Indian armed forces strain to create a hype about the "threat from China" in order to continue to steal big time from defence allocations! Higher the budgetary allocations, better the chances to steal more!

巴基斯坦将军们花很大一部分时间炒作来自印度的威胁,为的是继续以国防的名义占用巴基斯坦一大部分国家预算。

类似地,印度军队内部有许多人拼命炒作中国威胁,为的是继续从国防预算大势捞钱。国防预算越高,就更有机会窃取更多的钱!

Re: Pakistani generals spend a good part of their
by Shaan Nair
that sounds like the thoughts of a frog in the well.
Do you think the chinese came in 19 KM inside the Indian territory to party ?


What do you mean by 'perceived' threat ? Any you have to be so dumb to term the Chinese designs in the region as Hype!!


听起来你就像是井底之蛙。


你以为中国人进入印度领土19公里是为了聚会吗?


你说的假象威胁是什么意思?你是要多么愚蠢才会把中国人在该地区的企图定义为炒作!



Retd Army People
by deepak kotnis

These ppl shud be invited to seminars and all soughts of nice functions and given flowers and awards, but taking thier opinion on anything is a waste of time. These ppl spend thier entire life using the word enemy, how can u expect them to define friendship. At this moment where economy dictates superiority, army shud take a back step. Its a waste of tax payers money to buy weapons and feed personnell in defence.

这些人应该被邀请参加研讨会和各种典礼,发放鲜花和奖项,征询他们的意见纯粹是浪费时间。这些人一辈子嘴巴不离敌人这个词,你又怎么能指望他们如何定义友谊。在经济决定一切的此刻,军队应该退居幕后。买武器和养军队就是浪费纳税人的钱。

Take issues (Border/War/Trade) into Chinese border
by chandu

Indeed Sugar coated words from chinese side won't change their objectives .The need of the hour is tactful and intelligent approach from Indian side.Chinese has won first round of conflict without firing a single bullet.That is making our foregine minister admit that we have border problems.Chinese take their border disputes inside neighbour's territories ,and they make that neighbours dont claim areas which is inside their borders.Inshort Chinese fight war inside neighbours land and make sure it dont get extended to their boundaries.So we need our political class to think out of the box and approach issue in a different angle.

中国人的糖衣炮弹不会改变其目标。印度此刻需要采取机智和聪明的做法。中国人已经不费一枪一弹赢得了第一轮冲突,使得我们的外交部长承认边界问题的存在。中国人把边界争端带入邻国领土,迫使邻国不对其境内领土声张主权。简而言之,中国人在邻国领土打仗,确保战争不会蔓延到其边境内。所以,我们的政治阶层应当打破陈规,从不同的角度处理问题。

Re: Take issues (Border/War/Trade) into Chinese border
by chandu
Cold war was fought in Europe .But it was definitely warms in other places like asia and other places like cuba,Pakistan,afghanistan.so think about this .Chinese are not so brillant.They just compy europeans and US.So FIGHTING wars in enemies border is cpied from west


冷战是在欧洲打的,但在其他地方更火热,比如古巴、巴基斯坦、阿富汗。中国人没那么聪明,他们只是照搬欧美的做法而已,在敌人领土打仗也是从西方抄来的。



Indo-China talks
by rajat lahiry

We should pass the message to Chinese that their friendship is limited to Pakistan, where as India can enter into useful ties with USA Japan & also with Phillipines, Vietnam etc. & hence they should not push India too much. We should also make them understand that our ties with Russia are also excellent.
? We should pass the message to Chinese that the bi lateral trade cannot be one sided. Either they have to accept more products from India or India will restrict no. of products from them.
? India should stop export of raw materials. We should also encourage our producers for reducing cost. With rising labor cost in China, there is no reason we cannot be competitive.
? China should also be given an overall message that India is no longer a pushover & if they create trouble for us then we also create trouble for them (in Tibet)
? We should also use the opportunity to control their collaboration with Pakistan.

我们应当向中国人传达这样一条信息,即他们的友谊仅限于巴基斯坦,而印度可以与美国、日本、菲律宾、越南等国家建立有利可图的关系,因此他们不能对印度太过分了。此外,我们还应当让他们理解我们与俄罗斯的关系也是刚刚滴。

1、双边贸易不应当是单向的,他们或者接受更多的印度产品,或者印度限制进口中国货;

2、停止出口原材料。鼓励本土生产商降低成本。随着中国劳动力成本的上升,我们没有理由竞争不过他们;

3、还要向中国完整地传达这样一条信息,即印度不再是容易被打败的对手。要是他们给我们制造麻烦,那么我们也会给他们在西藏制造麻烦;

4、此外,我们还应当利用这个机会控制他们与巴基斯坦的合作。

Re: Indo-China talks
by Hebbar R
Sadly none of these will happen. Indians are not patriotic that they would stop procurement from China. The GOI is incapable of stopping such imports. There are many Indian companies that closed down unable to compete imports from China and this inability had nothing to do with the economics of manufacture. The GOI is incapable of getting China to buy more from India. The benefits one can get from countries like US, Russia, etc are not a counter balance to problems with China. The main problem is that China plans ahead and GOI plans for last year. Does the GOI have a plan of where it expects to take India in say 20 years from now?


遗憾地是没有一个会发生。印度人不爱国,不会停止从中国采购。印度政府无力阻止进口,许多印度公司因产品竞争不过中国货而倒闭。印度政府无法让中国更多地从印度采购,从美国、俄罗斯等国家获得的利益不能用于平衡对中国的损失。主要问题在于中国提前计划,而印度政府是为去年做计划。印度政府是否有预期20年后把印度带往何处的计划?


Re: Re: Indo-China talks
by rajat lahiry
Ha-This GOI is not sure whether they will be in power next year & you are talking of 20 year plan.
If this GOI remains in power for next 20 years, there will be no India.


哈,这届印度政府不确定明年是否会继续执政,你却在谈20年计划。


要是这届印度政府未来20年一直执政,那么印度就不存在了。


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