三泰虎

印度是如何向中国学习的

印度雷迪夫网站文章,原题:印度是如何向中国学习的。文章称,印度在得到内阁安全委员会的批准之后,决定组建打击军团,这是印度第四支这样的部队,不过也是最新一支专门用来打山地战的部队。实施组建打击军团的决定表明印度正在向中国学习。印度拟议待建的这个军团将下辖3个师的兵力。一旦边境遇险,那么这个军团可望加大对方的损失。

外文标题:How India is learning from China
外文地址:http://www.rediff.com/news/report/column-srikanth-kondapalli-how-india-is-learning-from-china/20130719.htm




U1716P27T1D663209F3DT20110827103900 三泰虎配图(图片来自网络)

When it came to national security issues, China never hesitated to take a quick decision regardless of the material costs. Nor were the superiority in military strength of the adversary a consideration, Srikanth Kondapalli points out.
Click here!

After dilly-dallying on the composition, budgetary allocations, role and missions of the service arms and bureaucratic wrangling between the defence and foreign/security establishments, the idea of the Strike Corps -- the fourth such force, but the latest dedicated to mountain warfare -- took concrete shape with the nod from the Cabinet Committee on Security.

Expected to cost nearly Rs 89,000 crore in the 12th Five Year Plan and composed of three-division strength, the proposed Corps is expected to take war into Tibet and enhance the costs if the other side ventures into India.

Although doubts were expressed on the need for such a Strike Corps, the contextual reasons strengthened this idea. Firstly, the then Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor stated in late 2009 that the armed forces are gearing up for a two-theatre front under nuclear conditions -- one addressing the Pakistan scenario and the other China -- in addition to considering the nuclear factor of Pakistan and China.

In the light of the continuing Chinese assistance to Pakistan in the nuclear and ballistic missile capabilities, such an assessment is hardly out of place. His successor General V K Singh re-iterated this position. However, the above military objectives and intentions were not matched with force levels on ground -- with turf wars coming to the fore between different services and ministries.

Secondly, the mounting asymmetry in military strength between China and India as a result of China's rise is clearly visible in the Indian fears from the northern neighbour which had raised several irredentist claims recently.

This growing asymmetry is reflected in budgetary allocations as well as actual military strength. Thus China spends (officially estimated at $120 billion) more than three times the Indian defence budget.

In the next two decades China is expected to surpass the United States defence spending to over $1 trillion, while Beijing already surpassed every other country in Asia.

Of these figures, it is estimated that China spends nearly one-fourth of such allocations in the borders with India and is reflected in over 30 military exercises conducted in and around Tibet in the last two years, military deployment including recently of J-10 and Su-27 long-range multi-role fighter aircraft and deliberate nuclear deterrence signals by the official press that China's missiles are now land/rail mobile.

Asymmetry in military strength is also reflected in troops's strength -- although both are now gearing for hi-tech local or limited wars in which infantry strength plays marginal role. While India has four Corps -- the 14th, 3rd, 4th and 33rd Corps including 10 Mountain Infantry Divisions of a total strength of nearly 220,000 -- China has four Group Armies in 13th, 14th, 21st, 47th with a total strength of about 400,000 troops in the Chengdu and Lanzhou military regions with operational jurisdiction bordering India.

The Sichuan-based 149th Airborne Division is seen frequently deployed in Tibet for rapid troops transport, augmented also by the rail and road networks in the region. These resulted in the Indian armed forces raising threat levels vis-a-vis China from 'low' to 'medium' levels in the last decade.

With the additional 50,000 troops as a part of the Strike Corps formation, India could partly mitigate this asymmetry in strength. More significantly it provides for a psychological boost to the Indian armed forces.

Thirdly, since the Indian nuclear tests in 1998, there has been a visible increase in the transgressions of the Line of Actual Control by the border patrols. Thus on an average there is an estimated three-digit figure of such transgressions in the eastern and western sectors of the border.

While both sides certified that there existed 'peace and tranquility' on the border areas, the situation on the ground indicated to intense jockeying for space.

Transgressions like the April 15 to May 5 Depsung Plains and recently at Chumar punctured this position. An exasperated Prime Minister Manmohan Singh stated in his press briefing, during Premier Li Keqiang's visit to Delhi in May, that since 1988 the basic understanding between the two countries is to maintain peace and tranquility so that they could explore relations in the diplomatic and economic spheres.

The Depsung Plains incident sealed the mouths of the naysayers for the Strike Corps.

The decision to go ahead with the Strike Corps indicates that India is learning from China. When it came to national security issues, China never hesitated to take a quick decision -- regardless of the material costs. Nor were the superiority in military strength of the adversary a consideration.

China going full hog in the Korean War -- which resulted in over a million casualties -- explains such an unambiguous position, even though it was pitched against the most advanced forces of the day -- that of the United States. The then premier Zhou Enlai famously said about the umbilical relationship between the Korean Peninsula and northeast China as 'lips and teeth' and that China would defend at whatever cost its perceived national interests and counter threats.

India needs to take a cue from this.

Srikanth Kondapalli is Professor in Chinese Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University.

文章部分转环球网的编译:http://oversea.huanqiu.com/military-articles/2013-07/4160680.html


印度雷迪夫网站7月19日文章,原题:印度是如何向中国学习的 印度在得到内阁安全委员会的批准之后,决定组建打击军团,这是印度第四支这样的部队,不过也是最新一支专门用来打山地战的部队。实施组建打击军团的决定表明印度正在向中国学习。

印度拟议待建的这个军团将下辖3个师的兵力。一旦边境遇险,那么这个军团可望加大对方的损失。

尽管有人对印度组建这样一个打击军团的必要性表示怀疑,但印度组建打击军团的目的性很强。

第一,时任陆军参谋长的迪帕克·卡普尔上将在2009年末曾宣称,除了考虑巴基斯坦和中国的核武器因素之外,印度军队正在加紧适应核态势下两个战区同时交战的情况——其中一个战区针对的是巴基斯坦,另一个则是中国。

第二,自从印度1998年进行核试验以来,印度认为中方边境巡逻部队对实际控制线的越界明显增多。在两国边境的东段和西段,这种越界行动的平均次数估计达到了3位数。

第三,中国崛起所导致的中印之间日益加剧的军力不对称明显表现为印度对邻国的谈虎色变。

印度现有4个军团———即第14、第3、第4和第33军团,它们下辖10个山地步兵师,总兵力将近22万;而中国负责与印度接壤地区作战任务的成都和兰州两个军区下辖4个集团军,分别是第13、第14、第21和第47集团军,总兵力约为40万。

这种日益加剧的不对称反映在了军事预算的划拨以及实际的军力上。中国的军费(官方数字是1200亿美元)是印度国防预算的3倍以上。在今后20年里,预料中国的国防开支将超过美国,达到1万亿美元以上。

在这些数字中,估计中国把军费的将近四分之一用在中印边境,具体表现为过去两年在xz及周围地区进行的30多次军事演习,包括最近派驻的歼-10和苏-27多用途战斗机在内的军事部署,中国导弹现在具有陆路、铁路机动能力的核威慑信号。

军力的不对称还反映在部队兵力上。在增兵5万作为打击军团建制的一部分的情况下,印度可以一定程度上减轻这种军力的不对称。

实施组建打击军团的决定表明印度正在向中国学习。在国家安全问题上,中国一向当断则断———不管要付出多大的代价。

中国在朝鲜战争中的全力以赴解释了这种绝不含糊的立场,即便它对抗的是当时最先进的美军。印度需要从中获得启示。(斯里坎特·孔达帕利)

以下是印度网民的评论:


译文来源:三泰虎 http://bbs.santaihu.com/thread-7012-1-1.html



China
by arungopal agarwal

How an indiscipline country can be compared with discipline.

一个不遵守纪律的国家又怎么能与遵守纪律的国家相比较呢?

Venugopalan
China is mighty, can produce almost all their requirements in arms whereas we have to depend on foreign countries for every thing..even for finalizing the latest type of fighter a/craft we takes decades..we still fly mig-21, flying coffins..so no match


中国非常强大,几乎可以生产一切所需装备,而我们一切要依靠外国,最新战机花了几十年才定型,我们仍然在飞米格21战机,这种飞机就是飞行棺材,所以中印根本就没得比。


Re: Re: China
by Samir Padhi
Who said we can't produce our own military stuff?But it'll be against those officials and politicians who recieve large commissions from foreign firms for arms deals.So they'll never allow it to happen.That's the whole story.Have you ever heard a politician in India has been given death penalty for corruption, unlike in China?


谁说我们自己不会造的?要是自己造,就是跟官员和政客作对,他们届时就无法从外国公司收受军购的巨额回扣。整个事情的真想就是如此。你有听说过印度政客跟中国官员一样被判死刑吗?



China & India
by Suresh Babu

A mechanical engineer from Gujarat went china for employment during 2000 and after 10 years of his service, he started his own business in china. Now that indian engineer is an industrialist in china. If he was in india he will be a worker in any third grade industries in Gujarat. This means china is giving more salary/wages to their employees and this is evident from shopping malls coming in china.

2000年,古吉拉特邦的一位机械工程师去中国找工作。10年后,他在中国开始经营自己的公司,现在已经是中国的一位工业家。要是留在印度,他将只是古吉拉特邦一家三流企业的工人。也就是说,中国给员工支付更高的工资,从中国进入印度的购物商场发的工资就可以明显看出。

Om Shanti


Yeah,many Indians married Chinese girls and settled down here forever.There is huge scope for growth here.


是的,许多印度男人娶了中国女孩,然后就永久定居下来。当地有巨大的发展空间。


Re: Re: China & India
by s swetha s
Id you marry Chinese , you don't get their citizen ship. That is not growth. There is no way Indian women can adjust in China. Thats why they marry them.


要是你娶中国女人,你不会获得绿卡的。印度女人在中国根本就适应不来,所以他们(印度男人)会娶她们(中国女人)。


Re: China & India
by vikas bishnoi
yes china is providing all best of support to trade and biz .they knew only trade and biz is the key for which can make country strong and life .not like India you well said example of Gujarati engineer if he is in india may be seating in front of any Govt office for numbers of licences approval etc and end up his dream with doing with any third grad job .Tax , loan cost and non-cooperative policy is the main big rock .which hold back industryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy/


对,中国对商业贸易提供贴心支持,他们深知商业贸易是让国家变得强大的关键。印度则不一样,比如你说的那位古吉拉特邦机械工程师,要是他留在印度,可能会在古吉拉特邦某个办公室里等待许可证的批准,结果是梦想破灭,沦落为三流工人。税收、贷款成本和非合作政策是阻碍工业发展的主要障碍。



INDIA'S MILITARY
by trader

Strength should be 90,00,000 personnel so that we can match the threat of both China and minion Pakistan simultaneously.India should have 800,000 personnel in Tibet border compared to China's 400,000.It understands only strength and not peace bull...t!!We have to put max of our resources into defense!!We don't need repeat of Muslim and British rule again and national military pride should be the first priority!!!

印度的兵力应该保持900万人的规模,这样才能抵御同时来自中国和巴基斯坦的威胁。其中,印度应该在xz边界部署80万人以应对中国的40万军队。我们务必把大多数资源投入到国防中,再也不要让穆斯林和英国对印度的统治重演了。

news
by bhuwan varma

india,always lack strong leadership from time of death of Mrs indira gandhi,

自从英迪拉·甘地死后,印度就一直缺少强有力的领导层。

need strong pm
by SAI RAM

need strong pm

印度需要强势的总理

kv raghuram

The Chinese militia has been the aware of the world. India learnt from that country, way back in 1962, on defence preparedness, for which our country had to pay a heavy price, in terms of men and the country's boarder.

The raising of Mountain Division is surely a quick and timely response by our government to cope and tackle with ever growing threat from China militarily.

印度早在1962年就从中国领教到了战略防备的重要性,为此在人员和领土方面付出了沉重代价。

组建山地打击军必定能帮助政府在应对日益增长的中国军事威胁方面做出快速及时的反应。

Too little, too late.
by s d

India does too little too late.
The reason is Nehru Dynasty.
Nehru blindly believed the Chinese, and cried foul when China attacked in 1962.
Indira Gandhi kept the military strength on last priority.
Though as an exception, Rajeev Gandhi did his best at Sumdorang Chu incident, it was an isolated case and hee too kept the military at the minimum level.
Sonia does not care about what happens to India and is more concerned about herself, her family and her outside connections And so her stalwarts like A. K. Antony slept all throughout. They all mislead Indians and kept true position on the Chinese incursions hidden. And now when Chinese forces are nearly matching those of USA, here is a gimmick of increasing the number by just two division strength !! This is all ridiculous and angering !!!!

幅度太小了、时间上也太迟了

这要怪尼赫鲁王朝

尼赫鲁盲目相信中国人,中国1962年发起攻击时,他提出强烈抗议;

英迪拉甘地把军力打造放在最次要位置上。

拉吉夫甘地在桑多洛河谷事件上表现不错,不过那是个案,他也把军力保持在最低水平;

索尼娅根本就不关心印度,她更加关心的是她自己、她家人、外部人脉以及安东尼等支持她的坚定分子。

他们统统在误导印度人,将中国人的入侵隐瞒起来,现在中国军队就要匹敌美国军队了,他们就来这么一个花招,匆忙新建两个师的力量!这是荒谬的,听着就让人气愤!

NEver too late
by AUGUSTINE DIAS

I hope we are not too late & I also hope that we will achieve it in the targeted next 6years, I woner what happens after the 2014 elections ?????

我希望这不会太迟了,我还希望我们能在未来6年内实现这一目标。不知道2014年大选后会发生什么?

What India should not learn from China
by Suman Gadhok

China portrays itself as a strong & united nation.However,its citizens are totally curbed, They are denied right to property,freedom of speech,internet and right to vote the government of their choice,
Not a single neighbor of China trusts her be they be Japan,South Korea,Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Phillipines or Singapore.
China supports dangerous nations like North Korea & Pakistan.
On International forums they blatantly work against India.
As a nation China is a cookie ready to crumble.
Its hard working people deserve a better government.

中国将自己描绘为强大团结的国家。然而,它的公民却完全受压制,没有财产所有权,没有言论和上网的自由,没有投票的权利;

无论是日本、韩国、台湾、马来西亚、印尼、菲律宾或新加坡,没有一个近邻信任中国。

中国支持的是朝鲜和巴基斯坦等危险国家。

在国际舞台上,中国公然与印度唱对台戏。

......

勤劳的中国人民应该有一个更好的政府。

Re: What India should not learn from China
by NAGRAJ KV
Well writen!!Agree on most points.. but why do people need so much freedom and rights? They will misuse it..will sell their votes.. results in appeasement politics.. instead we need honest and effective governance


说得很好!我对大多数观点表示赞同,但对人们为何需要如此多自由和权力表示不理解。这些会被他们滥用的,他们会出卖选票,催生绥靖政治.....我们需要的是诚实和有效的统治。



China has a total of 18 so-called group armies
by XianYe

(actually combined corps) divided between 7 Military Districts: Beijing、Nanjing、Jinan、Shenyang、Guangzhou、Chengdu and Lanzhou, with the last 3 each having 2 GAs under command and the rest each having 3 GAs。China has 850000 army personnels per the latest Defence White Paper。Now even if both Chengdu and Lanzhou MDs,as the article falsely claim,are operationally placed against India,the number 400,000 is ridiculously high。50,000,consisting of 2 armoured brigades,a couple of artillery regiments and a number of frontiers regiments,are more realistic。A study of map of China should tell you the Lanzhou MD has NOTHING to do with India. Indians are thus misinformed, misled and lied to by their media.

中国总共有18个所谓的集团军,被分在7大军区里,分别是:北京军区、南京军区、济南军区、沈阳军区、广州军区、成都军区和兰州军区。

根据最新的国防白皮书,中国陆军有85万人。即便如本文的“不实指称”,成都军区和兰州军区的兵力都用来防印度,40万人的兵力也是高得荒谬。5万人的规模更实际,其中包括两个装甲旅、几个炮兵团和几个边防兵团。其实,稍微研究一下地图便知兰州军区跟印度没有一点关系,印度人被媒体误导和欺骗了。

Re: China has a total of 18 so-called group armies
by Shashank Parab
Man, Be aware .. Chinese can frame you for leaking information here.


I would not say they have deployed you to spread rumors, as this is very small forum.


哥们,小心.......你泄漏了信息,中国人会把你抓起来的


Re: China has a total of 18 so-called group armies
by Mahendra Singh
"False claim" is what goes with China. If you are a common citizen of china, then I suspect if even you know the real truth. Unfortunately Indian army and its plans are too transparent to the point that it is almost useless, what is the winning strategy if the opponent knows you too well. Hope Indian army and policy makers will get this lesson from China.


meanwhile getting back to topic, Indians know too well of how China claims as being innocent up untill showing the real ugly face, example? 1962 war with China, that happened immediately before china was singing peace to fool Indian. Now they are doing the same by building dams across Brmhaputra river despite giving assurances of otherwise. China is know for deception and not integrity world over.


So Mr. Xian, whom are you trying to fool here?


如果你是普通的中国公民,我怀疑你是否知道真相。很不幸,印度军队的计划太透明了,几乎变得一无是处。如果对手非常了解你,那你怎么能制胜呢?希望印度军队和决策者能从中国得到教训。


回到话题上来吧,印度人对中国的虚假声明太了解了,先是大喊无辜,然后就露出真面目,比如1962年的中印战争,中国当初可是大唱和平之歌来唬弄印度人。他们在布拉马普特拉河筑坝也是一样,口口声声说没事啦,要印度放心.....


总之,中国以欺骗著称于世,毫无诚实性可言。



Learn from China?
by Samir Padhi

I wonder if our politicians have paralysis of analysis.Or else why don't they take prompt measures to upgrade the Armed forces. It's not the numbers, but the quality of army which decides the fate of the war. We should rather learnfrom Israel rather, how to defend themselves.Most important, they ought to have some self-respet and self belief.

不知道我们的政客是否患上了分析瘫痪症,否则他们为什么不采取升级军队的措施。决定战争命运的不是军队数量,而是军队质量。我们应该向以色列学习如何自卫。最重要的是,印度应当自尊自信。

Why we want to learn on military expenditure?
by Nikhil

China didnt start with investing in military expenditure during their growth phase .They are now in a different phase than us .

Why dont we first learn to build infrastructure like they build and move all factories production etc etc to India .India has lot of skilled people and also willing to work hard , if the government can get factories to india .

But instead we spend money on buying expensive arms so much that we are no 1 arms buyer in the world .

and is this for nations growth ? it is for some people to earn loads of commissions and keep the nation with no infrastructure and make people suffer .

US and others are buying our people to write and create and environment which makes people believe arms purchase is really necessary .

these writers and many other media just write what they get paid for
someone pays they write

中国在发展阶段时并未大力投资军队,如今已经与我们处在一个不同的阶段。

为什么我们不先学他们搞基建,吸引各国工厂迁往印度。要是政府能想办法让这些工厂迁来印度,印度的很多技能人才可供利用,他们也愿意辛勤工作。

然而,我们把钱用于购买昂贵的装备,结果印度成为了世界头号武器买家。

这就是所谓的发展?一些人从中赚取了丰厚佣金,同时国家的基础设施一直落后下去,搞得民不聊生。

美国等国家雇佣写手来营造一种舆论环境,为的是让印度人相信购买武器是现实所需。

这些写手和许多媒体拿钱写文章。别人付钱,他们负责写文章,就这么样。

Re: Why learn only about military expenditure
by Nikhil
Can we please write an article on how China built its infrastructure and brand new cities like shenzhen where almost no one lived before and transformed it into an economic powerhouse


I think our people need food , better roads , good job , good quality of life than seeing arms display


我们能否写一篇这样的文章,即中国如何搞基建,如何在一个曾经几乎无人居住的地方新建深圳这样的全新城市,并将其打造成经济中心。


我认为,相比武器展示,我们人民更需要吃的,需要更好的公路,满意的工作,优质生活。


Re: Why learn only about military expenditure
by vishal raizada
If you do not have your boundaries safe and next day if china sits in Delhi, then what would be the use of building factories or other infrastructures, it is not an arms buying race more over a race to secure our boundaries and nation, once this part secured we can look fwd for development, otherwise max of our forces will be deployed and definitely defense expenditures will increase and we will not be able to move towards development and success.


要是边界不安全,中国明天或许就兵临德里了,届时那些工厂或者其他基础设施拿来又有什么用?这不是一场军备竞赛,而是要保护国家的安全。一旦安全得到保障了,我们就可以寻求发展,否则大多数军队会被牵制,军费开支肯定会增加,我们将没有能力向前发展并获得成功。


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