从这里了解印度人对中国的看法

印度防卫网:专家对J-15和美国F-18之间的性能对比分析

2013-09-07 22:12 45个评论 字号:

J-15属于第四代(译者:此文为新国际标准,共分五代)常规舰载机,其他还包括美国海军的F/A-18C/D“大黄蜂”和F/A-18E/F“超级大黄蜂”,法国的“阵风M”,和俄罗斯的米格-29K,印度海军也使用(译者:俄罗斯现役的苏-33呢?)。据新华社军事专家郑文浩表示,J-15拥有上述战机中最佳的超音速性能,在制空和空对空拦截方面尤其强大,在低空低速性能方面略逊于 “大黄蜂”系列,但优于其他机型。

译者:ngageboy
来源:http://bbs.santaihu.com
外文:http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/china/31955-f-18e-vs-j-15-chinese-view.html

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The J-15 belongs to the 4th generation of conventional shipboard aircraft, which also includes the U.S. navy’s F/A-18C/D “Hornet” and F/A-18E/F “Super Hornet”, the French “Rafale M”, and the Russian Mig-29K which is also used by the Indian navy.

According to Zheng Wenhao, military expert of Xinhua News Agency, the J-15 has the best supersonic performance among the fighters mentioned above, and is especially strong in air control and air-to-air intercept; its low-altitude and low-speed performances are slightly inferior to those of the “Hornet” family, but are better than those of the other models.

Experts’ Comparative Analysis of Performance Between J-15 and U.S. F-18

专家对J-15和美国F-18之间的性能对比分析

J-15属于第四代(译者:此文为新国际标准,共分五代)常规舰载机,其他还包括美国海军的F/A-18C/D“大黄蜂”和F/A-18E/F“超级大黄蜂”,法国的“阵风M”,和俄罗斯的米格-29K,印度海军也使用(译者:俄罗斯现役的苏-33呢?)。

据新华社军事专家郑文浩表示,J-15拥有上述战机中最佳的超音速性能,在制空和空对空拦截方面尤其强大,在低空低速性能方面略逊于 “大黄蜂”系列,但优于其他机型。

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With its roots in the excellent genes of the “Flanker” family, the J-15’s flight performance is relatively comprehensive. A heavy shipboard aircraft with a bare weight of about 18 tons, the J-15 is able to carry more than 9 tons of fuel internally, giving a range of over 3,000 km without the need to carry an auxiliary fuel tank. According to Zheng Wenhao, this allows it up to 12 mount points, which can all be used for a range of precision guided weapons, thereby creating high combat flexibility.
The extensive attack radius, generous bomb load, and lengthy patrol duration give the J-15 powerful single aircraft combat effectiveness.

基于“侧卫”家族的优良基因,J-15的飞行性能是比较全面的。该重型舰载机空重约18吨,内部能够携带9吨以上的燃油,在无需携带副油箱的情形下(航程)范围超过3000公里。据郑文浩声称,这使得12个挂载点,全部用来挂载一系列精确制导武器,从而拥有极高的作战灵活性。

作战半径远,载弹量大,巡航时间长,(这些特点)给予了J-15强大的单机战斗力。

However, according to Andrei Pinkov, chief editor of the “Kanwa Information Center”, a comparison between the “Flying Shark” on the Aircraft Carrier Liaoning and the “Super Hornet” on the aircraft carriers of the U.S. Navy indicates that the F/A-18E/F of the U.S. navy is more mature, and has certain advantages over the J-15.
The orientation of F/A-18E/F is a fighter attacker, so that its maneuvering is not so good as the J-15, which derives from an air control fighter. This means that the J-15 is more likely to shoot down F/A-18E/F in close combat,” says Pinkov. “However, the ‘Super Hornet’ is able to take off with the assistance of catapult, so that its real payload is likely to exceed that of J-15, which takes off by means of ski-jump. Thus the U.S. fighter has advantages in terms of attack and combat radius.”

然而,根据安德烈“汉和信息中心”主编平可夫声称,航母辽宁舰上的“飞鲨”与美军航母上的“超级大黄蜂”之间的比较表明,美国海军的F / A-18E/ F更加成熟,对J-15具有一定的优势。

“F/A-18E/F的定位是战斗攻击机,因此其机动不如强调制空的J-15。这意味着近战中J-15可以更容易地击落F/A-18E/F。”平可夫说,“不过,超级大黄蜂能够在弹射器的协助下起飞,所以其真正的有效载荷可能超过通过滑跃起飞的J-15,因此,美国战机的优势在攻击和作战半径上。”

The larger frame of the J-15 also reduces the number of aircraft on the aircraft carrier, and makes its radar cross-section bigger than the “Hornet”, offering the advantages of stealth and first sight to the enemy.
The J-15 represents a major transition in China’s Navy”, says Zheng Wenhao. As China’s first shipboard fighter, its capabilities in takeoff, landing and rapid combat-readiness are a major step forward.

体积更大的J-15也使得航母的战机搭载量减少,使得它的雷达反射截面也大于“大黄蜂”,(给大黄蜂)提供了隐身和先敌发现的优势。

“J-15标志着中国海军的重大转型”郑文浩说。作为中国首架舰载战斗机,它的起飞、着陆和快速战备能力是向前迈进了一大步。

以下为网友跟帖:

译者:ngageboy
来源:三泰虎论坛 http://bbs.santaihu.com/thread-7237-1-1.html

The Drdo Guy(印度)
J15 is basically a su 33 with some what inferior EW suite from the su33 and other so many drawbacks like Radar,IRST,underpowered engines AL 31.China was willing to buy Su33 but russia denied when it came to know about su27 copy j11..and super hornets are a leap ahead from the chinese filth.If the TOT clause was not there then F18 would have won the indian MMRCA contract.

J-15基本上就是苏-33,配备了一些苏-33上劣质的电子战系统还有其他许多缺点,如:雷达、红外探测与追踪(IRST)、动力不足的发动机AL31。中国本希望购买苏-33的,但遭到了俄罗斯拒绝,那时中国刚开始用苏27复制J-11。。超级大黄蜂完全超越中国战机,假如没有包含技术转让(TOT)条款,F-18将赢得印度中型多用途战斗机(MMRCA)合同。

Picdelamirand-oil(法国)回复The Drdo Guy(印度)
F 18 was elimined during evaluation by the IAF, TOT clause was examined in the next step to find the L1.

F-18在印度空军的评估过程中被淘汰的。在达到L1下一阶段时,包含技术转让条款就已经通过审查了。

Halloweene(法国)回复The Drdo Guy(印度)
Knowing personally a pilot, neither french nor american having flown both types, Rafale is more versatile and more advanced (his opinion)

根据既飞过法国也飞过美国型号的飞行员自己了解的,阵风更灵活、更先进(他认为)

Picard(克罗地亚)回复The Drdo Guy(印度)
SH doesn’t come anywhere near Eurocanards when it comes to Air-to-Air and is also worse than them when it comes to AtG (Gripen C 5.300 kg max payload vs F-18E 4.500 kg max payload).

当超级大黄蜂处于空对空时,只要一遇到“欧式鸭翼”,这家伙哪儿都逃不了。当它处于空对地时也比其他的差。(鹰狮C 5.3吨的最大有效载荷VS F-18E 4.5吨的最大有效载荷)

Gessler(印度)回复layman(印度,楼主)
They forgot the original Sukhoi Su-33 Flanker. How pathetic.
If you want to know how J-15 fares against F/A-18E/F, you need to find out how Su-33 fares against the
F/A-18 first.

Then, add or subtract certain performance parameters of the Su-33 according to the abilities of J-15 and you’ll
arrive at your answer about how it fares against Super Hornet.
I would consider multiple major aspects while comparing these two planes –

他们忘记了原型机——苏霍伊的苏-33侧卫,好可怜。

如果你想知道歼-15对比F/A-18E/F的价值,你需要先找出苏-33对比F/A-18价值。
然后,添加或减去某些苏-33的性能参数,再根据J-15的能力,你会得到你想要的答案——它对“超级大黄蜂”的价值到底如何。

我会考虑从多个重要方面来比较这两架飞机-

Range – Undoubtedly, J-15 holds the upper hand, thanks to the original Flanker bloodline that entails jets to have large internal fuel capacity.
Payload – J-15’s usual payload will be about 14,300lbs (6500kg), approximately same as that of Su-33,while F/A-18 payload capacity, is far greater at 17,700lbs (8050kg)

But it should be remembered that J-15, being a STOBAR aircraft it has certain disadvantages in regard to payload at time of launch. J-15/Su-33 have 12 hardpoints while SH has 1 less. But all in all, F/A-18 holds the upper hand here.

航程:毫无疑问J-15占上风,由于来自原型“侧卫”的基因,内部燃油载量大。
有效载荷:J-15的常规有效载荷将约14,300磅( 6500千克) ,和苏-33类似,
而F/A-18有效载荷能力远远大于17,700磅( 8050公斤)

但是应该记住, J-15的滑跃起飞具有一定的缺点,就是起飞时的有效载荷。 J-15/Su-33有12个外挂点,而超级大黄蜂少1个 。但是这一切的一切,让F/A-18在这点占据上风。

Speed – Flanker all the way, but watch the fuel gauge because high-speed flying is going to cost a lot of fuel and thus far I haven’t seen J-15 buddy-refueling with another J-15. So it’s unlikely this aspect is going to play a big role as it could reduce sortie rate.

Maneuverability – J-15 wins. But F/A-18 isn’t that bad either. Under most circumstances, J-15won’t be able to make good use of this ability. Victory however goes to J-15 with the SH not far behind.

速度:侧卫的优势,但要看燃油量,因为高速飞行是要消耗大量燃料的,因此到目前为止,我还没有看到J-15给另一架J-15加过油。所以,它是不太可能在这个方面会发挥很大,因为它减少了出击率。
操纵性:J-15胜。但是F/A-18也不差。在大多数情况下,J-15将无法好好利用这种能力。但如果J-15在超级大黄蜂身后不远处的话,必胜。

Agility – The F/A-18’s smaller size and nimbleness is likely to give it the edge of agility in close combat. J-15 isn’t bad either but it’s too large & too heavy to be as nimble as SH. But the canards on J-15 make up for it to an extent, it’s a good tie, with a slight edge to F/A-18.

Low Observability – F/A-18 all the way, it will always get the first look and therefore the first shot.

Radar – Raytheon’s AN/APG-79 AESA holds the upper hand. It’s a very capable radar & the Chinese’yet-a-prototype AESAs (which may nor may not find their way into J-15 in the near future) are nowhere near the technology offered by the US AESAs.

灵活性:F/A-18较小的体积和灵活性能让它在近战中得到优势。 J-15也不差,但它太大太重没有超级大黄蜂灵活。不过J-1的鸭翼在一定程度上弥补这点,在F/A-18微弱优势领先的情况下保持了不错的平衡。

低可观测性:F/A-18的优势,它总能先发现,因此可以先开火。

雷达:雷神公司的AN/APG-79有源相控阵雷达(AESA)占据上风。这是一个非常能干的雷达,使得中国的原型有源相控阵雷达(可能会也可能不会用他们自己的方式在不久的将来装在J – 15上 )无法追上技术上来自美国有源相控阵雷达。

Sensors – Both jets can have IRST, although J-15 doesn’t need to sacrifice a weapon store to mount one,so J-15 is better here. But considering the quality of US equipment vis-à-vis Chinese ones, I wouldn’t bet too much on J-15’s IRST. SH’s version is likely to be more capable, although I’m not sure.SH holds the upper hand in almost all the other sensor departments. SH ends up with the edge.
Combat – BVR – J-15’s huge RCS will and shall give away it’s position to the APG-79 much earlier,SH also can take the first shot with the new AMRAAMs. So F/A-18 wins here.

传感器:两者都有红外探测与追踪器,显然J-15不用牺牲一个武器挂架来搭载它,所以这点上J-15更好。但考虑到美国和中国之间的设备质量,我敢打赌J-15的红外探测与追踪器比超级大黄蜂的更强大,虽然我不确定。而在几乎所有其他的传感器方面,超级大黄蜂都占上风,超级大黄蜂完全终结这一优势。

超视距空战:J-15有很大的雷达反射截面(RCS),会被APG-79(雷达)过早地暴露它的位置,超级大黄蜂也可以使用阿姆拉姆(译者:AMRAAM,美军第四代先进中距空空导弹)先行开火。所以此项F/A-18赢。

Combat – WVR/Dogfighting – Leaving the abilities of AIM-9X and China’s WVR missiles aside, modern day WVR combat more and more depends on who can cue their high-g missiles onto the enemy better,rather than conducting high-g maneuvers themselves to get an angle on the opponent.

I would bet all my pennies on JHMCS HMD rather than anything Chinese have to offer.

Even while evading enemy missiles, US quality of systems will allow them to hold the upper hand most of the time. So SH holds the upper hand here too.

近程/格斗空战:撇开AIM-9X和中国近程导弹的能力不谈,现代近程空战越来越依赖于谁可以更好地为高机动导弹引导向敌机,引导而不单单依靠高机动导弹它们自己的射角。

联合头盔显示系统 头盔显示器(JHMCS HMD)并不是中国所具有的,我敢打赌上我所有的便士。

即使在逃避敌方导弹方面,美国质量体系将使他们能够在大多数时刻占上风。因此,超级大黄蜂这点又占上风。

Availability – A single Nimitz-class ACC can deploy a far greater number of F-18s than the Liaoning.That means USN will have the numbers advantage as well. The extremely large size of Flanker will limit it’s functioning within the space on Liaoning, and as I have learnt from @vstol jockey, this will have an effect on sortie rate as well. So SH inevitably holds the upper hand.

All in all, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is and will be a much better fighter plane than J-15 Flying Shark.

That’s what I concluded.

效率:一个尼米兹航母搭载可以部署的F-18数量远远大于辽宁舰。这意味着,美海军有许多优势。体积庞大的“侧卫”限制了在辽宁舰上的运作空间,我可以从垂直短距起降战斗机(译者:vatol Jockey,是论坛一名网友)那里发现,这对出击率有影响。因此,超级大黄蜂不可避免地占据上风。

所有的一切,说明F/A-18E/F超级大黄蜂将是一款比J-15飞鲨更好的战机。
这就是我的结论。

Vritra(印度)
Even with 4 tonnes of external fuel tanks, the Super Hornet can carry between 4-6 tonnes of ordinance.

即使超级大黄蜂的外部油箱有4吨,理论上仍然能载4-6吨

Gessler(印度)回复Picard(克罗地亚)
F-18E max payload only 4500kg?
It says here the 11 hardpoints can carry a max of 8,050kg –

F-18E的最大有效载荷只有4.5吨么?
(维基百科)里说的11个外挂点能携带8.05吨

Vstol jokcy(印度)回复Gessler(印度)

One more very important reason is that SH gets launched by CAT which does not interfere with the landing ac on angled deck but J-15 is STOBAR so while it is taking off, all other flying efforts come to an end. That will further reduce the sortie rate.

Have a look at the pix of USS Kittyhawk below. The front two CATs are free of the landing deck.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1906/cvn7124ui1.jpg

Hope this explains it better.

一个很重要的原因是超级大黄蜂被弹射器弹出不会影响航母斜角甲板上的着陆。但J-15是倾斜滑跃起飞,依靠自身飞行加力滑到跑道尽头。这将进一步降低出击率。
美海军的航母前面两个弹射器有时不用时可以作为停靠甲板。希望从这点上也可以解释美国的更好。

Vritra(印度)回复Gessler(印度)
Lockheed Martin’s SpectIR IRST sensor can be mounted on the Super Hornet’s centre-line external tank. Problem is that the tank needs to stay on at all times.

洛克希德马丁公司的SpectIR IRST可以安装在超级大黄蜂的中线外部油箱上。问题是,全程都要带着这个油箱。

The Drdo Guy(印度)回复Halloweene(法国)
I’M personally in favour of Rafael this is not because it has got the indian contract and i’m an indian who says my weapon is the best in the world like some pakistani guy’s who claim that one jf17=4 mki.it’s because i know the plateform and gained a lot of technicalities about Rafael through this forum’s sticky thread.

我个人很青睐阵风,这并不是因为它引进和印度签订了购买合同,作为印度人都会声称自己的武器是世界上最好的,就像一些巴基斯坦的家伙也会声称JF17=4架MKI。因为我通过本论坛的顶置主题里知道了许多有关阵风这架飞机的技术性知识。

The Drdo Guy(印度)回复Gessler(印度)
This again proves my ponit regarding chinese FILTH 15.wikipedia says they got the design from ukraine and applied the avionics of su27/j11.

这再次证明了我有关中国J-15的观点,维基百科说它的设计来自乌克兰,航空电子设备取自苏-27/J-11.

Manmohan yadav(印度)Gessler(印度)
“All in all, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is and will be a much better fighter plane than J-15 Flying Shark.”
that what we all agree with as well

“所有的一切,说明F/A-18E/F超级大黄蜂将是一款比J-15飞鲨更好的战机。”
这就是我们都非常同意的观点

Layman(印度)
Damn, why are we pitching each other up. This what Chinese thinks as mentioned in the article.

该死,为什么我们彼此都没闲着,中国人的想法正如文章中所提那样。

Gessler(印度)回复Layman(印度)
Currently, MiG-29K operated by IN holds some advantages against the J-15 but falls completely short of the SH in almost all aspects.
We need the Navalised FGFA at all costs. I have reason to believe an N-FGFA will be the most formidable carrier-borne fighter ever to have flown – definitely superior to anything Americans or Chinese could field on their carriers, like J-20/31 versions or F-35B/C.

目前,印度装备的米格-29K在对抗J-15时还保持一定优势,但面对超级大黄蜂时将完全处于弱势。

我们要不惜一切代价装备舰载第五代战斗机(FGFA)。我有理由相信舰载FGFA将是有史以来最强大,绝对优于任何美国或中国现有的航母搭载J-20/30或F-35B/C。

Manmohan Yadav(印度)回复Gessler(印度)
I am waiting for a Naval FGFA as well

我也对舰载第五代战斗机很期待啊啊啊!

The Drdo Guy(印度)回复Gessler(印度)
why the indian navy has abandoned su33 in favour of mig29k as per your views because i found mig29k a bit inferior to that su33.

正如你的意见,为什么印度海军放弃苏-33而转投米格-29K,因为我发现米格-29K逊色于苏-33。

Gessler(印度)回复The Drdo Guy(印度)
1) Vikramaditya/Gorshkov is smaller & lighter than Kuznetsov/Liaoning. As it is Su-33 is cumbersome to operate even on those 65,000+ ton carriers, it would be unfeasible to maneuver it comfortably on Gorshkov which is smaller at 45,700 tons.
This would severely limit the no. of aircraft that can be carried by Viki at once, again depleting sortie rate & availability.
2) Sukhoi Su-33 production line was dead even by the time MiG-29K finally got selected. If you want to have Su-33, you have to pay for re-activating the production line, that would cost billions.
We could have modified Su-30MKI for carrier-based ops but then as I said, a Flanker isn’t the best type of aircraft to fly from ACCs.
3) The smaller & lighter MiG-29K allows for larger number of a/c to be carried at once, and therefore allow to put bigger no. of a/c in the air at any given time than if a Su-33 was put on the same carrier.
4) MiG-29K is stealthier than Su-33/J-15.
5) MiG-29K can be upgraded with Zhuk-AE radar, new engines & enhanced RCS-reduction measures any day, but IN is content with it the way it is right now.

1. 维克拉玛蒂亚/戈尔什科夫比库兹涅佐夫/辽宁舰更小、更轻。由于苏-33繁琐的运作方式,只能在65000吨以上的航母上,要在45700吨的戈尔什科夫上操作是不行滴。
这将严重限制了维克拉玛蒂亚号一次战机的搭载量,也影响了出动率和效率
2. 苏霍伊的苏-33生产线已关闭导致最终只有米格-29K可以选择。如果你想拥有苏-33,就必须重启生产线,这将花费数十亿美元。
我们可以改进苏-30MKI让它成为舰载型,但正如我所说,侧卫并不是一款最好的舰载机。
3. 更小更轻的米格-29K可以一次搭载数量较多的导弹炸弹,因此没有必要更大的。在任何规定的时间里与苏-33一样可以将同量的导弹和炸弹送入空中。
4. 米格-29K的隐身性能更好
5. 米格-29K可以装备升级后的Zhuk-AE雷达,新型发动机和升级后的雷达反截面降低措施。故印度选择它是正确的选择。



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