三泰虎

印度五代机计划受打击,影响来自俄罗斯成本上涨

印度与俄国合作发展的第五代战斗机将在2014年公开展出。空军负责人Marshal NAK Browne表示,五代机的原型机按时间在Ojhar空军基地完成大量的测试后于2014年抵达印度,预计在2022年完成定型。第二架、第三架原型机分别将于2017、2019交付。根据计划,印度有望与俄国签订价值110亿美元的飞机合作开发计划。印度表示在2030年前购买214架第五代隐身战斗 机,项目总计开支为300亿美元。印度的第五代飞机将以苏霍伊T-50 PAK-FA为原型,并根据印度空军要求进行适当改进。

译者:ngageboy
译文来源:http://bbs.santaihu.com
原帖地址:http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/indian-air-force/29053-5th-generation-fighter-plan-hits-hurdle-russia-hikes-cost.html


73168386

5th-generation fighter plan hits hurdle as Russia hikes cost

(印度)第五代战斗机计划受打击,影响来自俄罗斯成本上涨

以下是各国网友的跟帖:


译者:ngageboy
译文来源:http://bbs.santaihu.com



Sunny_10(前苏联)
07-16-2013, 12:27 AM
even total development budget of F35/JSF has crossed $1.0 trillion to date, we hope Indo-Russian 5th gen PAK FA also won't face the same result at the end

迄今为止,F35/JSF的开发总预算甚至已超过1万亿美元了,我们希望印度—俄罗斯的第五代“猛禽斯基”(PAK FA)到最后的时候不会面临同样的结果。

Omya(印度)
07-16-2013, 01:04 AM
something tells me it will take dem more 6-8 years to complete dis project

我觉得需要花6-8年时间才能完成这个计划。

Kaku(前苏联)回复Omya(印度)
07-16-2013, 01:05 AM
I dont think so it going to be even completed by 2020


我认为甚至到2020年也完成不了



Yahya(印度)
07-16-2013, 11:23 AM
this is a disaster really we are wasting money and trusting russians and they are looting us as they did before and there will be another delays in this we really need fighters but guess dont think they will be ready by 2020

真的是一场灾难,我们在浪费金钱,他们会和之前一样搜刮我们,肯定会出现新的延期情况。我们真的需要战机,但我认为2020年前不会准备就绪。

Safriz(巴基斯坦)
07-16-2013, 12:13 PM
All IAF programs are getting into trouble..
MMRCA no end in sight.....
PAKFA seems to be meeting similar fate...
The problem may be with indian negociators beargaining too much ..... Losing precious time,and with passage of time these projects tend to go costly...
India needs to deploy better managers for these programs as the problems sound like managerial than technical...

印度空军的所有计划都陷入了困境
MMRCA看不到尽头
PAK-FA似乎要遇到同样的命运
这个问题可能与印度过于讨价还价有关.....白白失去了宝贵的时间,随着时间的推移,这些项目往往越来越昂贵...
印度需要安排一些更靠谱的管理者,这些项目看来是管理要比技术更重要啊...

Averageamerican(美国)
07-16-2013, 12:53 PM
PARIS: How the F-35 programme is fighting back
By: Dave Majumdar Washington DC
05:25 10 Jun 2013

The Pentagon's tri-service F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is making progress towards completing its developmental phase and entering operational service with the US Air Force, US Navy and US Marine Corps, contractor Lockheed Martin says. The US government watchdog agency, the Government Accountability Office (GAO), agrees that the much delayed and often troubled programme is making headway, in a report released earlier this year.
"The programme met or substantially met most of its key management and development testing objectives for the year," the GAO states in its report, in unusually positive terms. "We also found that the programme made progress in addressing key technical risks, as well as improving software management, manufacturing, and supply processes."
Not even the US Congressional sequestration law has had much of an impact on the $397 billion effort. The USAF still hopes to buy 1,763 jets, while the Department of the Navy (DoN) expects to acquire a total of 680 - of which the USMC will acquire 420 and the USN 260. The exact breakdown of the DoN purchase is in flux, but previously it was expected that 340 short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) F-35Bs and 340 carrier variant F-35Cs would be built.

巴黎:F-35项目如何反击
作者:戴夫·马宗达 于华盛顿
2013年6月10日05:25

承包商洛克希德·马丁声称,五角大楼为美国空军、美国海军和海军陆战队开发的“三军联合攻击战斗机F-35”完成了开发阶段,开始进入服役并取得了进展。美国政府监督机构政府问责办公室(GAO),在今年早些时候发布的一份报告里确认了这个常期因延迟而困扰的计划正在取得进展。

“该方案达到或基本达到本年度关键管理和开发测试的目标,”政府问责办公室在报告中从非常积极的角度称。 “我们还发现,该计划在解决关键的技术风险、改善软件管理以及制造和供应流程方面取得了进展。”

即使是美国国会封存法案极大地影响了397亿美元的努力,美国空军还是希望购买1,763架战机,而海军部(DON)预计购买共计680架——美国海军陆战队将获得420架,美国海军获得260架。海军部购买的具体比例在不断变化,以前它的计划是购买340架短距垂直起降(STOVL)的F-35B和340架舰载型F-35Cs。

Averageamerican(美国)
07-16-2013, 01:10 PM
The United Kingdom, Italy, Netherlands, Australia, Canada, Norway, Denmark, and Turkey are part of the development program; Israel, Singapore and Japan , Israel:::: Singapore and Japan will also equip their air services with the F-35. The goverments and military of all these has studied the unclassified and classified date on the F35 and decided it is the plane they want for the future. Does any one here really believe Russia and India are going to come with something just as good or better. Especially considering all the evidence to the contrary.

英国、意大利、荷兰、澳大利亚、加拿大、挪威、丹麦和土耳其都是这项发展计划的一部分;以色列、新加坡和日本也将为他们的空军装备F-35。这些政府和军队享有F35已经研究完成的保密和非保密数据,这决定了该飞机就是它们未来所需要的。有人真的相信俄国和印度能一起将某些事情做得足够好或更好么,特别就目前的所有证据而言,答案是相反的。

Picdelamirand-oil(法国)回复Averageamerican(美国)
07-16-2013, 02:21 PM
The GAO report is not that positive, it is just that it surprises everybody that there is a little bit of positive statement in it. I have made an analysis of negative points included in this report in my thread : The Flying White Elephant


政府问责办公室(GAO)的报告不甚乐观,里面唯一的一点正面表述让所有人都感到有些惊讶。我在“飞天废物”的帖子里做了负面分析。


Jonas(英国)回复Picdelamirand-oil(法国)
07-16-2013, 02:51 PM
All of which is old news,once again try and come up with something new.


As for your comment that France does not want the F35, isn't the truth that France cannot afford the F35. The cuts they are making to defence go beyond even those in the UK. Have a nice day.


所有这一切已不是新闻,来点新鲜的吧。


至于你所说的法国不需要F-35,那不是真的,真相是法国买不起F-35才对。他们削减国防的幅度甚至超过了英国。



Haruki(日本)
07-16-2013, 03:53 PM
In fact, F-35 is cheaper than Rafale, and very likely cheaper than T-50 ( FGFA ). In my opinion you should take another thorough consideration.

US, Japan sign deal on first four F-35 fighters
The letter of offer and acceptance, which was signed in Japan, includes four conventional takeoff variants of the F-35 fighter at a cost of 10.2 billion yen (US$128.61 million) each, a slightly higher price than the 9.9 billion yen (US$124.83 million) than Japan initially budgeted to spend.

事实上,F-35还是比“阵风”便宜的,而且很可能比T-50(FGFA)还便宜。在我看来,你应该从另一角度深入思考。
美国和日本签署的协议是首次四架F-35战斗机
日本已经签署的要约和承诺书,包括了4架常规起降型的F-35战斗机,每架成本102亿日元(1.2861亿美元),这个价格只比日本最初的预算99亿日元(1.2483亿美元)花费稍高。

Cro(克罗地亚)回复Haruki(日本)
07-16-2013, 04:44 PM
It is not, when buying a jet fighter one also needs to calculate the overall cost for the 30 years that the jet is gonna be in the service and that is where the price of F-35 goes considerably up compared to the Rafale.


不对,现在购买战机是需要计算整个30年总成本的,当F-35战机开始服役时的价格将与阵风的成本差不多了。


Haruki(日本)回复Cro(克罗地亚)
07-16-2013, 05:15PM
It is not, F-35 has only one engine. Rafale and T-50 have two.
Thanks to the larger orders, spares of F-35 will be cheap, and easy to upgrade, just like F-16 vs. Mirage 2000. The spares of Mirage 2000 are very expensive.


不对,F-35的发动机只有一个。 而“阵风”和T-50有两个。
F-35的备件由于有较大的订单,价格将会比较便宜,而且容易升级,就像F-16对比幻影2000一样。幻影2000的备件就是非常贵的。



Averageamerican(美国)
07-16-2013, 09:33 PM
The way I see it the F22 and F35 will replace up to 10 different kinds of US planes, but will cost twice as much as T50 and PAK FA but will have a kill ratio against all other planes including the PAK FA and T50 of more then 50 to one, much like the F15. In addition the F22 and F35 will have much better intergrated support, repair and maintance as well as turn around time then any plane in the world.

F22和F35将取代10多个不同种类的美军飞机,将比T50和PAK FA花两倍还多的费用,但能秒杀其他所有飞机包括PAK FA和T50。此外,F22和F35将有更好的整合支持,以及维修和保养周期比世界上任何一种飞机都好。

Cro(克罗地亚)
07-17-2013, 12:20 AM
Well as much problems as PAK-FA, F-35 and F-22 have i bet you that J-20 probably has more problems than all 3 of those combined.
Keep in mind that J-20 is based on the technology that was acquired by copying or by cyber-espionage, and thy did that copying much before problems of F-35, F-22 and PAK-FA were reviled and so Chines have much harder task of engineering the fixes for those problems because the work is not their originally there fore engineers involved in the project wont be able to fix the problems because of the lack of in-depth knowledge that thy would have if thy did the entire R&D by them self.

So my prognoses on the J-20 is that it is going to be a dud, or it wont have the needed capability's if it goes in to production.

尽管PAK-FA、F-35和F-22可能存在很多问题,但我敢和你打赌, J-20的问题可能比三者所有问题加起来还多。
请记住,J-20是基于购买过来的技术,通过山寨或者网络间谍活动得到,他们会把很多F-35、F-22和PAK-FA之前没有被发现的问题也复制过去,所以中国要修复这些工程问题,显然会很艰难,因为他们没有从最初阶段就参与了该项目,所以工程师解决不了这些问题。他们不是从研究和开发阶段过来的,所以缺乏深入的了解。

所以,我预计今后的J-20,将会是一个废物,如果投产也将不具备必要的能力。

Gessler(印度)回复ngageboy(中国)
07-19-2013, 04:15 PM
Russian Air Force will induct T-50 by 2015-2016.

J-20 will be inducted in Chinese military after 2018 or somewhere around that
figure.

But Indian Air Force FGFA will come only after 2020.

俄罗斯空军的T-50将在2015-2016服役。
中国军队的J-20将在2018年左右服役。
但印度空军的FGFA将只能在2020年以后服役。

Picard(克罗地亚)回复Gessler(印度)
07-19-2013, 05:52 PM
I'd say that full operational capability will be achieved in 2020-2025 for T-50, 2020-2030 for J-20, and 2025-2040 for FGFA.


我想说的是T-50将在2020-2025年间实现全面作战能力,J-20将在2020-2030年间,FGFA将在2025-2040年间。


Kaku(前苏联)回复Gessler(印度)
07-19-2013, 06:12 PM
J-20 still in the testing phase, you cannot approve the plane for Pilots without proper testing, even the US F-22 required the 10 yrs for its development, so you think the chinese can beat this.


J-20仍处于测试阶段,你得承认飞机需要飞行员进行适当的测试才行,即使是美国的F-22,其研发过程也经过了10年,所以你认为中国能打破这个(记录)?。


Gessler(印度)回复kaku(前苏联)
07-19-2013, 10:01 PM
A plane is inducted does not mean it is fully operational and ready to bomb whatever target is assigned to it.
A plane is first inducted into Air Force, where it then undergoes AF-supervised trials for many years.
Same applies for PAK-FA as well.


一架飞机的服役不意味着具备全面作战能力,甚或准备去轰炸给其分配的目标。


一架飞机首次进入空军服役,要经过多年空军的监督试验。
这同样适用于PAK-FA。



Averageamerican(美国)回复ngageboy(中国)
07-19-2013, 06:15 PM
I expect by 2025 manned fighters will be obsolete. United States Navy launches first X-47 robotic drone fighter jet from an aircraft carrier deck | Space, Military and Medicine | News.com.au

They may be used as pack leaders for fighter drones.

我预计到2025年的时候有人战斗机将被淘汰——美国海军第一个无人驾驶战斗机“X-47B”已经从航母甲板成功起飞。

它们可能会成为无人驾驶战斗机中的霸主。

Averageamerican(美国)
07-20-2013, 11:14PM
There are strike drones already, I doubt if its ten years.

攻击无人驾驶飞机已经有了,我怀疑不用十年(就替代载人飞机)。

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