三泰虎

美洲是中国人发现的吗

Did China discover America?

美洲是中国人发现的吗?

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以下是Quora读者的评论:

Eric Wang, Reads a lot about history

The primary proponent of the “China discovered America” theory is Gavin Menzies, a British historian who has published several books on the subject, most notably 1421: The Year China Discovered the World. In it, he claims that the Chinese admiral Zheng He sailed from China to the Bahamas and back, but how factual are his claims?

This map is one that Menzies uses to support his claims. A Shanghai-based lawyer purchased the map in 2001. He claims that it is a 1760s copy of an original map created in 1418, three years before Menzies’ alleged date of Zheng’s discovery of America.[1]

There are several things wrong with using this map as proof. For one, the depiction of the Earth as two intersecting hemispheres is a feature that is only found in European maps. Additionally, the immense detail in which North and South America is depicted would not be able to be achieved in 30 years of voyages. It took the Europeans hundreds of years to get to this level of detail, and the amount of detail of inland features could only have been reproduced by inland explorers. 

“美洲是由中国发现的”理论的主要支持者是英国历史学家加文·门基斯,他曾出版过好几本书来论证这个理论,其中最初有的是1421年出版的《中国发现世界的那一年》。在这本书中,他称中国海军上将郑和从中国航行到巴哈马群岛并返回,但他的说法真实性如何呢?

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这张地图是门齐斯用来支持他的主张的。上海的一名律师于2001年购买了这幅地图。他声称这幅地图是1760年代绘制的,是1418年原始地图的复制品,比门齐斯宣称的郑和发现美洲的日期早三年。

使用这张地图作为证据有几个错误。首先,把地球描绘成两个相交的半球是欧洲地图上特有的特征。此外,地图上北美和南美的许多细节是不可能在30年的航行中发现的。欧洲人花了几百年的时间才达到这样的细节水平,而内陆地貌的大量细节只有内陆探险者才能重现。

The Himalayas are labeled as the largest mountain range in the world, but this was not found to be the case until the 19th century, and the Arctic is depicted on this map allegedly from 1418, but does not show up on any other Ming map until 1593. The depiction of California as an island is common on 17th century European maps. Not to mention how this map was allegedly created 3 years before Menzies claimed that Zheng He discovered America.[3]

There is a general historical consensus that the map is actually a copy of a European map originally made in the 17th century,[4][5] but what about Menzies’ claims themselves, and the limited evidence he gives to support those claims?

Menzies mostly follows the primary historical narrative, which is that the Yongle Emperor sent Zheng He in command of a fleet of 107 ships in 1421. They then sailed all the way to India and Africa, collecting exotic animals and goods before returning to China. Menzies, however, makes the additional claim that the Chinese continued their expedition across the Atlantic, and eventually reached the Americas after splitting up into four separate fleets.

喜马拉雅山脉被认为是世界上最大的山脉,但直到19世纪才被发现,这幅据称月于1418年绘制的地图上的北极,直到1593年才出现在明朝的其他地图上。在17世纪的欧洲地图上,常常把加利福尼亚描绘成岛屿。这张地图是如何在门齐斯声称郑发现美洲的三年前就绘制出来了呢?

历史上有一个普遍的共识,那就是这幅地图实际上是一幅欧洲地图的复制品,最初是在17世纪绘制的,但是门齐斯自己的想法呢,另外证据也十分有限。

门齐斯主要是根据历史叙述,即永乐皇帝在1421年派遣郑和率领107艘船的舰队出使海外。然后,他们一路航行到印度和非洲,在返回中国之前收集异国动物和货物。然而,门齐斯还声称,中国人继续他们横跨大西洋的探险,最终分成四个独立的舰队并到达了美洲。

译文来源:三泰虎  http://www.santaihu.com/48421.html   译者:Joyceliu

He claims that one fleet circumnavigated the globe via the tip of South America and then sailed around the coast of Australia, and that another fleet circled around Antarctica. Additionally, he claims that 75% of the ships and their passengers (up to 500 per ship) set up Chinese colonies in the Americas and Australia.[6]

This begs the question: is there any physical evidence for these colonies? Well, no. No remains of a Chinese settlement have been found in the Americas or Australia, and there is little reason to believe that the Chinese could have such overseas colonial ambitions, yet not aim to conquer lands closer to home, e.g. Japan. His genetic “evidence” for these claims comes from a company that was later proven to be a scam. Menzies also claims that several structures around the world were constructed by Chinese colonists, but there is no evidence linking these constructions to the Chinese at all.[7] If you would like to do more reading on the topic, here is a helpful link: The myth of Menzies' "1421 " exposed

他声称,一支舰队通过南美洲的尖端环绕地球,然后环绕澳大利亚海岸航行,另一支舰队环绕南极洲。此外,他称75%的船只及乘客(每艘船最多500人)在美洲和澳大利亚建立了中国殖民地。

这就引出了一个问题:这些殖民地有任何物证吗?嗯,没有。在美洲和澳大利亚没有发现中国人定居的遗迹,而且几乎没有理由相信中国人会有这样的海外殖民野心,却没有征服离本土更近的土地,比如日本。他的基因“证据”来自一家后来被证明造假的公司。门齐斯还声称,世界各地都有以一些建筑是由中国殖民者建造的,但没有证据表明这些建筑与中国人有关。如果你想对这个话题进行更多阅读,请参考这个有用的链接:门齐斯的“1421”神话被揭穿。

In summary, there are no other reputable historians that propose alternate theories about China discovering America. Menzies was the first to propose this and have any sort of success, and his theories have mostly been debunked as pseudohistory, and he relies on very little solid evidence to back up his seemingly absurd claims.

In the end, none of this matters. The Vikings beat them both, and even then, the hunter-gatherers who ventured across the Bering Strait were the true “discoverers” of America.

总之,没有其他著名的历史学家提出关于中国发现美洲的替代理论。门齐斯是第一个提出这一观点的人,并取得了一定的成功,他的理论大多被揭穿了,是虚构的历史,他缺乏确凿的证据来支持他看似荒谬的主张。

最后,这些都无关紧要。维京人打败了他们,即使在那时,冒险穿越白令海峡的采猎者才是美洲真正的“发现者”。

 

Ty Lee, Student

Let’s look at arguments from two viewpoints.

1.China discovered America first

2.China did not discover America first

让我们从两个角度来看看论证。

1.中国首先发现了美洲

2.中国并不是第一个发现美洲的

Viewpoint 1

Menzies (A historian) claims that the map above is from 1418, and that Admiral Zheng discovered the Americas.

The map has a layout of various rivers and towns in the Americas. I’m not sure about the rivers but the towns look to be accurately placed.

观点1

门齐斯(历史学家)声称上面的地图是1418年的,郑发现了美洲。

这张地图上有美洲各河流和城镇的布局。我不确定河流的位置,但城镇的位置看起来很准确。

Viewpoint 2

This is a more well supported viewpoint, endorsed by many historians. The key arguments they present to disprove the map are:

1.The map is in a style that belongs exclusively to Europe

2.California is represented as an Island, as is the case on most European maps from the 17th century.

3.The Himalayas are marked as the tallest mountains (They were not discovered yet).

4.It is too accurate to belong to the time

观点2

这是一个更有说服力的观点,得到了许多历史学家的认可。他们提出的反驳地图的主要论点是:

1.这张地图具有欧洲特有的特征

2.加利福尼亚被描绘成岛屿,就像17世纪大多数欧洲地图一样。

3.喜马拉雅山脉被标记为最高的山脉(当时它们尚未被发现)。

4.它太精确了,超出了当时的制图水平。

What I think

There’s really no point in arguing who discovered the Americas.

We don’t have a definition of ‘discovering’. Did the Siberians who crossed the Bering Straits discover America? Did the Vikings of Vinlandsaga discover America?

It’s a confusing debate, but if we talk about discovery in terms of a cultural expedition, then the evidence points overwhelmingly towards Columbus and Co.

Thanks to Derek Frost (フブキ), for helping me out with the some information

我认为

争论谁发现了美洲没有意义。

我们对于“发现”没有定义。越过白令海峡的西伯利亚人发现美洲了吗?文兰佐格的维京人发现美洲了吗?

这是一个令人困惑的争论,但是如果我们从文化探险的角度来讨论发现,那么证据就会压倒性地指向哥伦布和他的同伴们。

感谢德里克·弗罗斯特,帮我提供了一些信息。

 

He Ren, I come from Beijing, love to learn about culture

Although Christopher Columbus is the first person reported to discover the America, Ancient Chinese might have done that before. The truth is unknown to us because of the lack or loss of documentation.

Ancient boats are seriously affected by wind and current. No effective navigation. No stable food supply. It could take several decades to travel from Asia to America along the coast, and another several decades to come back, not mentioning the possibility of accidents.

尽管克里斯托弗·哥伦布是第一个发现美洲的人,但中国古人以前可能就发现过美洲。由于文件的缺乏或丢失,我们不知道事实真相如何。

古代船舶受到风和洋流的严重影响。没有准确的导航手段。没有稳定的食物供应。从亚洲沿海岸旅行到美洲可能需要几十年,再回来又可能要花上几十年,更不用说发生事故的可能性了。

Ancient China had great enthusiasm to discover the rest of the world. A goverment official called Zheng He spent decades leading hundreds of ships travel around Pacific (Treasure voyages - Wikipedia). While Zheng He is the most well-known voyager in Chinese history, many others also travelled to Japan, India and Africa, according to the documentation.

However, no one was recorded to have travel to America. There might be someone.

古代中国有极大的热情去探索世界。一位名叫郑和的政府官花了几十年的时间带领数百艘船环游太平洋(寻宝之旅-维基百科)。文件显示,尽管郑和是中国历史上最著名的航海家,还有其他许多人去过日本、印度和非洲等地。

但未从历史记录上发现有人去过美洲。也许真的有人去过。

1.Someone who successfully arrived in America and decided not to take the risk of traveling back or to write something about it.

2.Someone who visited America and came back and thought America was yet another big island, deciding not to report it.

3.Someone who visited America and realized it was a new place worth of documentation but others didn’t believe him and the documentation became toilet paper.

We just don’t know.

1.也许有人成功抵达了美洲,但决定不冒险回头,也不写点什么记录。

2.有人抵达了美洲,回来后以为美洲只是又一个大岛,不想公之于众。

3.有人抵达了美洲,发现这是一个值得记载的新地方,但其他人不相信他,文献变成了厕纸。

我们不知道而已。

 

William Hennigan, lived in China

No. Menzies stands debunked. There is no Chinese map or mention in the Zhong He travels or within the Ming archives.

“Discover” means getting back with the news. The Vikings were the first to get back, but they gave up and never really committed them selves to North America. Columbus was the first create a discovery to do that. So, he deserves the credit.

The Siberians came early and late, but apparently never went back. The Siberians are not Chinese/Han/HuaXia. It also defies logic that there were no other people in North America when they arrived.

It is also my opinion that the people of South American are not Siberians but people from South East Asia,, but they never were able to get back.

不。门齐斯的理论已经被揭穿了。郑和游记和明代文献中都没有提到中国绘制的地图和记载。

“发现”的意思是带着消息回来。维京人是第一个回来的,但他们放弃了,没有真正为北美出力。哥伦布是第一个这样做的人。所以,他值得后人称赞。

西伯利亚人也抵达了这里,但显然从来没有回去过。西伯利亚人并不是中国人/汉人/华夏人。当他们到达北美时,那里没有其他人。

我也认为南美人不是西伯利亚人而是来自东南亚的人,但是他们再也回不来了。

 

Benjamin Marr, always keen to learn

So far we have not got anything to prove that wild idea. LOL.

Hypothetically, some ancient Chinese managed to reach American continent by land or sea, nevertheless I wouldn't regard that as Discovering the new continent, because -

到目前为止,我们还没有任何证据来证明这个疯狂的想法。哈哈

假设,一些古代中国人通过陆地或海洋到达了美洲大陆,但我不认为这算是发现了新大陆,因为

1.American indian must have arrived much earlier.

2.Those Chinese didn't leave any evidence in America, or passed any info back to China. (At least we have not yet found such evidence or info)

3.Those Chinese didn't make any change to te new continent.

And i highly doubt in ancient China what would drive people to migrate so far away or to explore so far away. We Chinese are not very curious in geography for all the time.

People usually moved to Korea and Japan to flee from persecution or war. And Hainan island used to be regarded as the edge of the entire world.

1.美洲印第安人肯定来得更早。

2.那些中国人没有在美洲留下任何证据,也没有把信息传回中国。(至少我们还没有发现这样的证据或信息)

3.那些中国人没有对新大陆做任何改变。

我非常怀疑,在古代中国,有什么理由驱使人们迁移到这么远的地方,或者到这么远的地方来探险。我们中国人对地理并不那么好奇。

人们通常为了躲避迫害或战争而移居韩国和日本。海南岛曾经被认为是世界的边缘。

 

Linus Skov, I read about history frequently

No. I cannot find any evidence for this position.

Australia wasn’t “discovered” by anyone until the Dutch ship Duyfken under captain Willem Janszoon reached it in 1606. That’s the first recorded contact, but there is evidence to suggest that fishermen from the Malay Archipelago/Maritime Southeast Asia.

America wasn’t in contact with the outside world until Leif Eriksson, a Norse sailor and explorer, reached it approximately at the turn of the 1st millennium. A couple of centuries later, Columbus reached Central America.

不。我找不到这个说法的任何证据。

1606年威廉·詹松率领的荷兰船“杜伊夫肯”号(Duyfken)抵达澳大利亚,澳大利亚才被世人“发现”。这是首次有记录的接触,但有证据表明,最早的访客也许是来自马来群岛/东南亚海域的渔民。

北欧水手兼探险家列夫·埃里克森在大约公元1世纪初到达美洲大陆,美洲才与外界取得联系。几个世纪后,哥伦布到达了中美洲。

 

Clarence Sherrick, works at Psychic Eye, Las Vegas

There are indication that the Chinese may have explored the western coast of North America. However, no definable proof has been forthcoming. There are also cultural indications that the Japanese may have had trading connections with South America long before any Chinese, Vikings or Christopher Columbus contact. There are even aspects of potential Polynesian connections as well

The truth be told, it was peoples out of Siberia or even possibly North Asian boating expeditions that actually were the very first people to discover the lands now named after an Italian.

Amerigo Vespucci was the first human being in recorded history to realize that there were actually two separate continents between Europe and Asia.

Which is why they are now both named after him.

有迹象表明中国人可能已经探索过北美西海岸。但目前还没有明确的证据。还有文化上的迹象表明,日本人与南美的贸易往来可能比任何中国人、维京人或哥伦布都要早得多。甚至波利尼西亚也有可能。

说实话,正是西伯利亚以外的人,甚至可能是北亚的划船探险者,才是第一批发现这片土地的人,而这片土地现在是以意大利人的名字命名的。

亚美利哥·韦斯普奇是历史上第一个意识到欧亚大陆其实是两个独立大陆的人。

这就是为什么他们现在都以他的名字命名。

 

David Salvia, AS/AA Physics & History, Santa Barbara City College (2014)

The Chumash people of California discovered America about 13,000 years ago. There is evidence of earlier discovery, but the Chumash still live there.

About 1980 it was discovered that the Maya initially settled on the west coast of the Americas over 4000 years ago, in fishing villages along the Yucatan Peninsula. Among the discoveries was some pottery that closely resembled that of a contemporary Chinese culture.

加利福尼亚的楚玛什人大约在13000年前发现了美洲。虽然有更早期发现的证据,但楚玛什人仍然生活在那里。

大约在1980年,人们发现玛雅人最初在4000多年前就定居在美洲西海岸的尤卡坦半岛沿岸的渔村。在这些发现中,有一些陶器与中国当时的文化非常相似。

 

Tim Sabin, Retired (2013-present)

In a way, yes. A very long time ago, the sea level was low enough that what is now the Bering Straight was then the Bering Land Bridge. Many people living in Asia (I assume that included some from China) migrated across the land bridge to North America. Some stayed in the north and became today's Eskimos. Others migrated southward and became the Native Americans, Mayans, and Aztecs.

在某种程度上,是的。很久以前,海平面非常低,现在的白令海峡就是当时的白令海峡大陆桥。许多生活在亚洲的人(包括一些来自中国的人)跨过大陆桥来到北美。有些人留在北方,成为今天的爱斯基摩人。其他人向南迁移,成为美洲原住民、玛雅人和阿兹特克人。

 

Matt Groening, Web Developer (2018-present)

I think the Vikings discovered America first. Can’t be there have been people there before.

Soon you run into this problem , because you would deny one people the rights you give to other people for really no reason ?

Is having firearms or ships who can cross the ocean a criteria ?

Maybe you have heard about the Kon-Tiki expedition ?

I think this is a good answer to your question.

我认为维京人首先发现了美洲。那里以前不可能有人类定居。

你很快就会遇到这个问题,因为你可以无缘无故地剥夺一个人的权利?

拥有武器或能够穿越海洋的船就是标准吗?

也许你听说过康提基探险队?

我认为这是对你问题的一个很好的回答。

 

Glen Ross, AD Ancient History & Ancient Egypt, The College and University Experience (2004)

I have heard something about it before, that the Chinese discovered Mexico before the Spanish but I don’t know if it’s true or no

我以前听说过,中国人比西班牙人更早发现了墨西哥,但我不知道这是不是真的。

 

Ronald Weinger

If it is true that Native Americans are descended  from Asians who came across the Bering Strait then it is possible that the Chinese, or a people related to the Chinese “discovered” America.

如果美洲原住民真的是穿越白令海峡的亚洲人的后裔,那么很有可能是中国人,或者与中国人有关的一个民族“发现”了美洲。

 

Raymond Beck, works at U.S. Army

Yes. Unless you count Native American Indians as the first. They always get left out.

是的。除非你把美洲印第安人算在内。他们总是被人们忽视。

 

Timothy Mauch, former Submarine sonar Chief Petty Officer at United States Navy (1976-1991)

I will only say that the word “discovered” doesn’t necessarily mean the first person to discern something or that it didn’t exist before-hand, but is more like the first person to tell others about it.

我只想说,“发现”这个词并不一定意味着第一个发现某事的人,或者它之前并不存在,而更应该是第一个告诉别人这件事的人。

 

Tan Choon Wei, lives in Penang, Malaysia

I do have a copy of Gavin Menzie’s 1421. I read it, and I do not agree with some of the points of the book. What I could speculate now, is that the only facts we now truly know is that the Chinese did sail through South East Asia, passing Malacca to India, and went to Africa for the furthest extend. About crossing the Atlantic, I don’t quite believe there might be a possibility for the Chinese, but I do still think there “is a slight possibility” for the Chinese to discover — accidentally, like how Colombus accidentally find America but was originally intended to go to India. The map that the author claims that is made from 1418, mostly be a fake, cause to be honest, compared with the Mao Kun maps (truly made by Zheng He’s fleet), there is still some slight diferrences, example the accuracy of the cartographing.

我有一本加文·门齐的1421的书。我读过这本书,但我不同意书中的一些观点。我现在能推测的是,我们现在真正知道的唯一事实是,中国人确实航行过东南亚,经过马六甲到达印度,最远到达非洲。关于跨越大西洋,我不太相信中国人这个能力,但我仍然认为中国人“有机会”发现——就像哥伦布偶然发现美国,但最初想去的是印度一样。作者声称的1418年绘制的地图,大部分是假的,说实话,与毛昆地图(真正由郑和船队绘制的地图)相比,仍然有一些细微的差异,例如制图的准确性。

When Zheng He left China, the Ming Dynasty was prosper. However, when he returned, the Ming Dynasty was plagued by co ption, and was a nearly ruined country. He was shocked, as when he was expecting to have a lot of people greeting him when he returned like when he left, he would not expect to have saw barely some people greeting him, and his country, once prosperous, now mostly ruined.

当郑和离开中国时,明朝非常繁盛。可等他回国时,明朝已深受附败之困扰,几乎已经是一个残败的国家。他很震惊,因为他原以为会有很多人在他归国时迎接他,就像他离开时那样,他没想到他的国家,曾经那么繁盛的国家,几乎毁了。

 

Al Carroll, works at Northern Virginia Community College

Same reason Columbus did not. You can't discover a place that already has over 100 million people in it.

There are some highly disputed accounts of Chinese monks coming to the Americas in the 27th century BCE, in The Book of Mountain and Seas. There are also later accounts of monks again around the 5th century BCE.

跟哥伦布一样。你不可能发现一个已有超过1亿人口的地方。

在《山海经》中,有一些关于公元前27世纪中国僧人来到美洲的记载,引起了激烈的争议。后来也有关于僧侣的记载,大约在公元前5世纪。

 

Craig Travis

The Chinese are not an imperialistic people. Their history with sl very is much different than ours. Their philosophers, their religions all have a different bent to them. They like nice things, but going without is not a problem.

They tried to keep Europe away from them, It was just their way at the time.

It's a different world today

中国人民不是帝国主义人民。他们的努力制历史与我们的截然不同。他们的哲学家,他们的宗教都有不同的追求。他们喜欢好东西,但没有好东西也不成问题。

他们试图让欧洲远离他们,这就是他们当时的做法。

今天的世界是一个不同的世界。

 

Rito Plos

Henrietta Mertz’s book —Pale Ink describes Two ancient records of Chinese exploration in America.

Chinese ancient book(Shan Hai Jing) written in 4000 years ago described the geography and customs of America. So Chinese discovered America long long time ago before Columbus. However, Chinese are peaceful people, who never wanted to rob and destroy other countries.

亨丽埃塔·默茨的《淡墨》一书描述了中国在美洲探险的两段古老记录。

4000年前编写的中国古籍《山海经》描述了美洲的地理和风俗。所以中国人早在哥伦布之前就发现了美洲。然而,中国人是爱好和平的人民,他们从来不想抢劫和破坏其他国家。

 

Anthony Alvarez

Well, I thought that Native Americans came from Asia over the Berring Straights. Could some of them  have been Chinese?

I'm not real informed on the topic of migration but it does seem that at least the Siberians and Mongolians (or whatever these peoples were called back then) were the first to "discover" America Or more properly "The Americas".

i don't know, maybe Bill O'Riley or McDonalds was here first.

我以为美洲土著人是从亚洲迁来的。他们中有没有可能有中国人?

我对移民这个话题并不了解,但至少西伯利亚人和蒙古人(或者不管当时这些民族叫什么)是第一个“发现”美洲的人,或者更确切地说是“美洲人”。

我不知道,也许是比尔·奥莱利或者麦当劳是最早来的。

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