三泰虎

为什么印度造航母的速度没有中国那么快

Why can’t India build its own aircraft carrier ships at the same speed as China?

为什么印度造航母的速度没有中国那么快?

 u=2829939685,3647820828&fm=26&gp=0.jpg

Quora读者的评论:

JC Hóu, Very VERY amateur military enthusiast

This is going to be a brief answer where I will simply list the reasons broadly and as neutrally as I can:

1.The Indian standard for shipbuilding and especially military shipbuilding has always been relatively slower. Usually for destroyers (the backbone of most medium to large navies) India takes around 10 years from laying down to commissioning one. I don't know what procedures caused this but it seems consistent and likely systematic, while for China in the recent two decades the span for building a destroyer is usually well within 5 years (also from laying down to commissioning). So it shouldn't be a surprise that for aircraft carriers the situation is similar.

2.Chinese ships almost all use domestically-built equipment. No negotiation, procurement, evaluation, etc. with foreign parties was needed for the recently-launched 002 (known to some as the Type-001A) carrier. The Type-001 kept a lot of the existing Soviet design (although most of the equipment was removed way back) and they have reportedly changed much of that from radar to propulsion, because they can and want to…

The Vikrant for India seems to use quite some foreign equipment, and it does not help those equipment need more time for integration also. The Vishal should rely on foreign components even more because it will be (reportedly) nuclear-powered and equipped with catapults, which seem almost certainly to be imported or "jointly done".

3.Fully-integrated supply chain. No need to elaborate about this. This is the norm for China from most military equipment to the household appliance industry.

我的回答很简短,我尽量中立地列出原因:

1.印度的造船标准,尤其是军用造船速度一直较慢。通常来说,印度的驱逐舰(大多数中大型海军的骨干力量)从建造到投入使用需要大约10年的时间。我不知道是什么原因导致了这种情况,但它似乎一贯如此,很可能是系统性问题,而对于中国来说,最近20年里,他们建造一艘驱逐舰的时间跨度通常在5年之内(从建造到投入使用)。所以,对于航空母舰来说,也就不足为奇了。

2.中国船只几乎都使用国产设备。最近下水002(一些人称为Type-001A)航母不需要与外国方面进行谈判、采购、估价等流程。001型保留了许多苏联现有的设计(尽管大部分设备在很久以前就被拆除了),据报道他们从雷达到推进装置已经进行了很多调整,因为他们有能力而且有决心这么做……

印度的维克兰特号似乎使用了相当多的外国设备,这些设备需要更多的时间进行整合。维沙尔号会更加依赖外国部件,因为(据报道)它将由核动力驱动,并配备弹射器,这些弹射器看起来几乎肯定是进口的或“联合制造”的。

3.完整的基础供应链。这一点就没必要赘述了。从大多数军事装备到家用电器行业,这在中国都见怪不怪了。

 

Yuqi Liu, studied at University of Copenhagen

To answer this question we can have a look at the civilian shipbuilding capacity of both China and India. Here is the statistics from 2016: Largest shipbuilding nations based on gross tonnage 2016 | Ranking. China together with the South Korea build the world's most civilian ship. However, i cannot see India in this chart.

Although the civilian shipbuilding capacity only counts for part of the military ship building capacity but it still help China trained the experienced workers and engineers, improve the building process and also solve many unseen problems during the building. Building enough civilian ship will do help you boost your ability to build military ship more efficiency.

The other thing i would like to point out is that, the recently finished aircraft carrier is based on the old Varyag class (Type 001A) which is a refurbished one. China bought this ship from Ukraine together with tons of design paper. And then China begun its first domestic build carrier (Type 002), the previous experience for refurbishing the 001A will help China to boost its building speed.

In conclusion, China is way better in civilian shipbuilding than India, China has more experience on aircraft carrier building and the third one is that China have the full supply chain of aircraft building from radar to engine.

译文来源:三泰虎  http://www.santaihu.com/47581.html  译者:Joyceliu

要回答这个问题,我们可以看看中国和印度的民用造船能力。以下是2016年的统计数据:以2016年总吨位排名为基础的造船大国。中国和韩国共同建造了世界上最多的民用船只。然而,我在这张图表中看不到印度。

虽然民用造船能力只占军用造船能力的一部分,但它仍然帮助中国培训了经验丰富的工人和工程师,加快了建造过程,也解决了建造过程中许多看不见的问题。建造足够数量的民用船将会帮助你提高建造军用船的效率。

我想指出的另一件事是,最近完成的航空母舰是基于旧瓦良格级(001A型)的翻新版。中国从乌克兰购买了这艘航母,连同大量的设计图纸。然后中国开始建造第一艘国产航母(002型),翻新001A的经验将帮助中国提高航母建造速度。

综上所述,中国在民用造船方面远远优于印度,中国在航母建造方面经验丰富,第三,中国拥有从雷达到发动机的完整的飞机制造供应链。

 

Robert Clouse, Disable Veteran at Cincinnati, OH (2000-present)

China hasn't build it's own carrier yet! It has bought 4 ex-carriers (since 1985), and the carrier it uses now is the converted Soviet aircraft carrier Varyag (Kuznetsov class), bought in 1998!

Through various ventures, China has also purchased the ex-Soviet carriers Minsk and Kiev. These carriers have become floating amusement parks for tourists.

It next Chinese Carrier, home built, was started in the mid 2010′s, and isn't expected to be operational until 2023!

Starting when the Chinese bought the Australian HMAS Melbourne, in 1985, it wasn't until 2011 the Chinese had a carrier at sea, but they didn't land a aircraft in it until November 2012!

China has bought 4 ex-carriers, one Australia, and three Soviet, but one has been sent to sea and it still isn't operational!

The Indian carrier, the Vikrant-class, was started from scratch in 2009, and expected to be operational in 2018, 9 years later. The Chinese Carrier is converted Soviet carrier bought in 1998, and still not operational until 2012, 14 years later!

BTW, the Chinese carriers are basically the equal to WW2 light carriers, holding about 40 aircraft at the most!

中国还没有建造自己的航母!它购买了4艘旧航母(自1985年以来),现在使用的航母是1998年购买的前苏联瓦良格号航空母舰(库兹涅佐夫级)!

中国还购买了前苏联航母明斯克号和基辅号。这些航母已经成为游客的水上游乐园。

它的第二艘中国航母,国产,在2010年中期开始,预计要到2023年才能投入使用!

从1985年中国购买澳大利亚HMAS墨尔本号开始,直到2011年中国才真正拥有了一艘能下水的航空母舰,直到2012年11月才有一架飞机降落在航母上!

中国已经购买了4艘旧航母:1艘澳大利亚航母和3艘苏联航母,其中一艘已经被派驻海上,但还无法实际操作!

印度航空公司维克兰特号于2009年开始建造,预计将于9年后的2018年投入使用。中国航母是对1998年购买的前苏联航母改装而成,直到14年后的2012年才投入使用!

顺便说一句,中国的航母基本上相当于二战时期的轻型航母,最多只能容纳40架飞机!

 

Hanqing Zhao, studied at New York University

China did not build its own aircraft carrier at all.

Those ships are just some fishing boats that were camouflaged like aircraft carriers.

Indians think that they really are warships? Don’t be fooled by Chinese media.

中国压根没有建造自己的航空母舰。

那些船只是一些伪装成航空母舰的渔船。

印度人认为它们真的是军舰?千万别被中国媒体愚弄了。

 

Akshay Shah, studied Bachelor of Science in Computer Science at Osmania University

Hello,

Thanks for asking.While I understand that India and China are perceived to be pitted against each other, so this kind of analogy is expected.

So a gentle disclaimer, to all my fellow Indians is to not be jingoistic about this.

1.Chinese economy is a 12.2 Trillion economy against 2.4 Trillion Indian economy. So all this means is that India cant match up to China vis a vis clout & money power.

2.Chinese style of functioning is pretty clear.Grow and outgrow , outnumber , overwhelm the opponent. So in this pursuit they have put Defence on the top most areas of investment more so in the last 20 years.India on the other hand seems to be grappling with building a 30+ year old prototype called Tejas. So, policy making and approach is all that seems flawed in India’s case. When go nments change policy changes in latters case unlike the former which has unity in command and direction.

3.Innovation and Indigenization is where both countries are at a different trajectory.While the Indian trajectory is to procure foreign equipment so first there has to be a RFP, followed by political intervention, followed by negotiation with the seller or seller nation.Then there is the great filthy Indian middlemen angle.Finally you get the equipment. By the time it arrives the technology isnt dated anymore or somewhat redundant.On the other hand China is completely indigenous from a hair pin to building an aeroplane.The only defence equipment that they seem to be still comprehending is a jet engine. Other than that China seems more or less a nation that has a local industry that caters to its defence needs.

4.Indian capability in ship building is restricted because of decades of political lethargy,lack of infrastructure,indecisive decision making , limited skilled and semi skilled workforce. Moreover there is severe cash crunch as most of the fund allocation is utilized for maintaining the armed forces.

你好,

谢谢你的提问。我知道印度和中国是对立的,所以这种比较是意料之中的事。

所以我要对我的印度同胞们说一声,不要在这个问题上表现出极端的爱国主义。

1.中国经济体量是12.2万亿,印度是2.4万亿。所以这意味着印度的影响力和金钱实力都不如中国。

2.中国式的运作方式非常清晰。发展得越来越快,人口越来越多。因此,为了实现这一目标,他们在过去20年里把国防放在了投资的第一位。另一方面,印度似乎正在努力建造一个30多年前的原型机:光辉战机。因此,印度的政策制定和方法似乎都存在缺陷。

3.创新和国产化是两国不同的发展路线。印度的发展路线是购买外国设备,所以首先要有采购提议,然后是政治干预,然后是与卖方或卖方国家进行谈判。然后是恶心的印度中间商。最后才能拿到想要的装备。当装备真的到手的时候,这项技术已经过时或者有些多余了。另一方面,从发夹到飞机制造,中国实现了完全的国产化。他们还未解决的唯一国防装备似乎只有喷气发动机。除此之外,中国似乎已经是一个拥有能满足其国防需求的国产能力的国家了。

4.印度造船能力受到限制,原因就是几十年来政治无力、基础设施匮乏、决策优柔寡断、熟练及半熟练劳动力不足。此外,由于大部分资金分配用于维持武装部队,现金严重短缺。

 

WorldinChina Seeingthe

According to data released by the China Shipbuilding Industry Association, in 2014, there were still 735 shipbuilding enterprises in China, with a total of 529 shipyards and shipyards of more than 10,000 tons, of which 56 were large docks and shipyards of more than 100,000 tons. Of the 56 large docks and shipyards, 20 are of the 100000 ~ 250,000 ton class, 30 are of the 300000 ton class, and 6 are of the 500000 ton class. The tonnage here refers to the deadweight tons of the cargo ship planned to be built on the berth / dock, not the displacement of the ship, nor the load-bearing capacity of the berth / dock. Since 2014, China has not built large shipyards or docks.

How many aircraft carriers can be built?

There are 38 docks in China with a length of more than 304.5 metres and a width of more than 75 metres. Even if the size of the "Ford" class aircraft carrier in the United States (333 meters in length and 77 meters in width) is taken as the standard, there are 34 Chinese docks with lengths and widths longer than the Ford class. For example, Dalian Shipbuilding heavy Industry, which has built the "Liaoning", has three large docks with a length and width of 540 meters × 80 meters, 400 meters × 96 meters, and 370 meters × 86 meters, respectively.

That is to say, if the Chinese shipbuilding industry starts to go all out to build aircraft carriers without considering other factors and only the limitations of docks, we can see the spectacular scene of more than 30 aircraft carriers being built in docks at the same time! Of course, In reality, it is impossible not to take into account other factors: the country's strategic planning for naval development, the occupation of shipyards for other ship production, and the closure of some enterprises with large docks (of the 34 docks mentioned above that can accommodate the "Ford" class), Seven shipyards are located in shipyards that have closed down), most businesses do not have confidential qualifications, and so on, and-money.

中国船舶工业协会发布的数据显示,2014年中国造船企业仍有735家,造船厂529家,其中大型码头56家,10万吨以上船厂56家。在56个大型码头船厂中,10 ~ 25万吨级20个,30万吨级30个,50万吨级6个。这里的吨位是指拟在泊位/码头建造的货船的载重吨,不是指船舶的排水量,也不是指泊位/码头的承载能力。自2014年以来,中国没有继续建造大型造船厂或码头。

能造多少艘航空母舰?

中国有38个码头,长度超过304.5米,宽度超过75米。即使以美国“福特”级航空母舰的尺寸(长度333米,宽度77米)为标准,中国也有34个码头的长度和宽度超过福特级。例如,大连造船重工建造了“辽宁号”,拥有三个长、宽分别为540米×80米、400米×96米、370米×86米的大型码头。

也就是说,如果中国的造船业不考虑其他因素,只考虑码头大小,开始全力建造航母,我们可以看到30多艘航母同时在码头上建造的壮观景象!当然在现实中,我们不可能不考虑其他因素:中国海军的发展战略规划,船厂还在建造其他船只,关闭一些企业和大型码头(上面提到的34个码头能够容纳“福特”号航母),大多数企业没有保密资格等等,还有金钱方面的因素。

 

Glenn Lee, studied at University of California, Berkeley

Aircraft carriers are used to project power. The US needs to project power and the US navy operates far from home; the US needs aircraft carriers. China and India should not waste their resources on aircraft carriers . Does India or China need to project power in the Black Sea? Mediterranean? the Atlantic? etc.?

India and China should finalize their mutual borders, sign a non aggression treaty with each other and with Russia, sign a free trade treaty with each other and with Russia.

The enemy of India and China is poverty, inadequate public services, diseases, inadequate nutrition. Surely their enemy is not each other; their media should stop their war mongering activities.

It does not matter how fast a aircraft carrier can be built if aircraft carriers are not needed.

航空母舰主要是为了秀实力。美国需要展示实力,美国海军又在远离本土的地方作战;所以美国需要航空母舰。中国和印度不应该把资源浪费在航空母舰上。印度或中国需要在黑海、地中海、大西洋等地方秀实力吗?

印度和中国应该敲定彼此的疆界,和俄罗斯签署互不侵犯条约,和俄罗斯签署自由贸易条约。

印度和中国的敌人是贫困、公共服务不足、疾病和营养不足。他们的仇敌肯定不是彼此;他们的媒体应该停止进行战争氛围的渲染活动。

如果不需要航母,那么建造航母的速度有多快并不重要。

 

Lokesh Meena, B.Tech Electronics and Communication Engineering, Malaviya National Institute of Technology, Jaipur

When you speak of a ship class, in context of China it means at least 20–30 ships while in case of India it’s usually mean 3–6 ships in a class. If a Indian shipyard starts churning out a destroyer in 2 years instead of 6, it would remain dry for years and that’s bad for both equipment and workforce. As for construction techniques, all new ships are modular in design which is the latest trend in shipbuilding.

If India was looking to build a navy as large as that of China or USA, it would no doubt work the shipyards double time, but that’s not the case.

当你们说到船舰,在中国至少指的是20-30艘船,而在印度通常是指3-6艘船。如果一家印度造船厂在2年内而非6年内开始建造驱逐舰,它几年内也下不了水,这对船舰和劳动力都不是好事。在建造技术方面,所有新型船舶都采用模块化设计,这是造船的最新趋势。

如果印度想要建造一支和中国或美国一样大的海军,毫无疑问造船厂的工作时间就要加倍,但事实并非如此。

 

Sashank Reddy, works at Neato Robotics

Budgets & Finances.

The Navy needs a fleet sizeof over 200 ships with primary purpose being anti ship and anti submarine in addition strategic deterrence. The aircraft carrier is an offensive platform and an expensive one at that. The current Vikrant under construction has already exceeded $4 billion. That’s a major chunk of money sunk into one ship. We get a lot of sensitive equipment imported and they cost in $ which means we are paying costs like the US and Europe with Indian defense budget.

For the same $4 billion, we can get 4 - 5 modern destroyers or frigates or 9 - 12 conventional attack submarines or 7 nuclear submarines. This is the reason aircraft carriers are frowned upon. You can an entire fleet for the price of 5 carriers. In fact, with enough modern submarines, one can easily challenge an aircraft carrier fleet. Submarines are deadly to a carrier. This makes the carriers very expensive losses in war. Indian Navy does not need too many carriers at this point as it operates more or less in its own back yard. Island bases help more than carriers.

We are building 45 ships at once. Our capacity for construction is pretty good. Many new private players have entered the industry as well. Its only mater of will and more importantly funding.

预算和财政。

海军需要超过200艘舰艇的舰队规模,主要用于反舰和反潜,以及战略威慑。航空母舰是一个进攻性的平台,是一个昂贵的平台。目前在建的维克兰特的造价已经超过40亿美元。我们进口了很多敏感设备,它们的成本是以美元计价的,这意味着我们要用印度的国防预算来支付美国和欧洲的成本。

花同样的40亿美元,我们可以获得4 - 5艘现代驱逐舰或护卫舰或9 - 12艘常规攻击潜艇或7艘核潜艇。这就是航母不受欢迎的原因。你可以用5艘航空母舰的价格买下整个舰队。事实上,有了足够多的现代化潜艇,人们可以轻易地挑战航空母舰舰队。潜艇对航空母舰来说是致命的。这使得航母在战争中损失惨重。印度海军目前不需要太多的航母,因为它基本都是在自己的后院作战。岛屿基地比航空母舰更有帮助。

我们正在同时建造45艘船。我们的造船能力相当好。许多新的私营企业也进入了这个行业。现在只是决心的问题,还有更重要的资金来源问题。

 

Simon Burgess

I don’t know much about this specifically but I know that Chinese build stuff fast at a great sacrifice to quality. They are famous for developing so fast in just 20 years but everything built was very poor quality indeed. Houses and buildings less than 10 years old seem more like 70 years old. The whole sewage and drainage system in every city is so bad that if it rains even for a little while there is always flooding - especially in the north.

China is pretty well known for making cheap products that break after a very short time. This is true even today. They make everything from small products to huge buildings in the same way so I’m sure the aircraft carriers are no different.

我不太清楚具体情况,但我知道中国人以牺牲质量为代价,所以造东西的速度快。他们以在短短20年内高速发展而闻名,但所有建造的东西质量都很差。不到10年房龄的房屋和建筑物看起来不止70年的样子。每个城市的污水和排水系统都很糟糕,如果下雨,哪怕只下一小会儿,也总是洪水泛滥——尤其是在北方。

众所周知,中国生产的廉价产品在很短的时间内就会出故障。即使在今天也是如此。他们用同样的方法制造从小物件到大型建筑的所有东西,所以我相信航空母舰也不会例外。

 

Amar Pat, Supervisor at Apple

1.Budgetary restraints

2.Wespons building infrastructure not up to the mark.(though growing up at snails pace)

3.Skilled tecnicians , workers are numbered.

And the biggest reason i would list as lack of defense engineeing courses in educational instutions that are failing to provide any bedrock for the interested candidates who are looking forward to make their career in weapons and machinery building.

1.预算限制

2.武器装备建造的基础设施不达标。(虽然以蜗牛的速度在进步)

3.熟练的技术人员,工人屈指可数。

我认为最大的原因在于缺乏国防工程教育方面的课程,无法为那些有志在武器和机械制造领域钻研的人提供任何理论基础。

 

Anuj, former Engineer

Answer in one line -Corruption.

Example- we purchase INS Jalashwa from America, America used the ship for 25 yrs and India purchase the ship in new ship price. Same thing happen with INS Vikarmaditya (Ex Russia Admiral Gorshkov), we purchase this ship in the price that they would give us new Aircraft Carrier

答案只有一句话——附败。

我们从美国购买加拉希瓦号航母,这艘航母美国已经用了25年,印度以新船的价格购买回来。同样的事情也发生在维卡马蒂亚号上(前俄罗斯戈尔什科夫号),我们购买这艘船的价格足以购买一艘全新的航母了。

 

Aakash Ranga

China has refined the science of construction and building to an art form. As an Indian I truly admire their skills and ability to execute. You guys are the best at the moment.

中国已经把建筑科学提炼成一种艺术。作为一个印度人,我真的很佩服他们的技巧和执行力。你们中国人是最棒的。

 

JIasheng Xu, studied at Tsinghua University (2007)

Because India are too quick and too happy to build or do any other thing.

When Indians are working, they’re still dancing in their mind. It makes the Indian minds very quick but bloody unobservant and unfocused.

I advise the Indians to think over some extremely miserable moment in their life before they start to do some jobs so they could keep a peaceful and quiet heart.

因为印度太灵活,太乐天,静不下心来搞建设或做其他事情。

当印度人工作的时候,他们的脑海里仍然在跳舞。这使得印度人的思维非常敏捷,但极其不专注。

我建议印度人在开始工作之前,想想他们生活中一些极其痛苦的时刻,这样他们才能保持一颗平和宁静的心。

三泰虎原创译文,禁止转载!:首页 > 印度人看中国 » 为什么印度造航母的速度没有中国那么快

()
分享到: