三泰虎

中国程序员水平全球第一印度第33,网友:印度人做的多是IT初级岗位

In terms of programmer quality, do you agree that China ranks 1st globally while India ranks 31st?

谈到程序员的水平,你认同中国排名全球第1,印度排名33吗?

印度人上网

QUORA网站读者评论:

译文来源:三泰虎       http://www.santaihu.com/46878.html    译者:Joyceliu

Balaji Viswanathan,

Leave alone India. The land of Alan Turing, and a major center of tech R&D - UK is placed at 29, the land of Google, Apple and Microsoft - US is at 28 and Israel at 35. That alone should say something is wrong about the ranking rather than the countries ranked. Such poorly constructed reports without much context are more like trolling - built to get eyeballs with shock value rather than convey useful information. Of course, HackerRank benefits from that extra attention.

Think about this: the countries that rank low are English speaking ones, while countries ranking up are all non-English speaking countries. What does that say?

放过印度吧。图灵的故乡,重要的科技研发中心——英国排在第29位,谷歌、苹果和微软的故乡——美国排在第28位,以色列排在第35位。单是这一点就应该说明是这个排名有问题,而不是排名中的国家有问题。这种没有交代清背景、写得一塌糊涂的报告更像是为了博眼球、骗点击率,而不是为了传达有用的信息。当然,HackerRank可以从这种额外的关注中获益。

想想看:排名靠后的国家都是说英语的国家,而排名靠前的国家都是非英语国家。这说明了什么?

HackerRank is a coding site that mostly supports English and most of its users are from English speaking countries. In English speaking countries, a lot of people sign up to the website - whether they are great programmers or not. Some of them solve great challenges, while most are just casual browsers. The average user from these countries are not likely to finish all the challenges.

In the non-English speaking countries, the only guys signing up are those at the elite level - the ones who have a good command of English and are well connected to even know about the website. These users are few in number [how many French and Swiss programmers are on HackerRank?] and are likely more committed than an average user. These elite users are also more likely to use HackerRank as a way to get a top job in US/UK, while those in major English speaking countries have other avenues to get job interviews.

HackerRank是一个基本上以英语为主的编码站点,它的大多数用户来自英语国家。在英语国家,很多人都会注册这个网站——不管他们是不是优秀的程序员。其中一些用户完成了巨大的挑战,而大多数用户只是偶尔上来看看。这些国家的普通用户不太可能完成所有的挑战。

而在非英语国家,只有精英阶层的人才会注册,他们精通英语,甚至对网站了如指掌。这些用户的数量很少(HackerRank上有多少法国和瑞士程序员),而且可能比一般用户更忠诚。这些精英用户也更有可能使用HackerRank来获得美英两国的最高职位,而那些英语国家的精英用户则有其他途径获得面试机会。

See Alexa ranking here: - more than half of the users are Indians and there are 17 times more Indians than Chinese. While the site ranks a respectable 484 in India, it is an also-ran in China at rank 11343. Does it mean Indians are far more interested in competitive programming than Chinese? That would be an equally faulty conclusion from this statistic.

来看看Alexa排名:超过一半的用户是印度人,印度人是中国人的17倍。虽然该网站在印度排名为484,但在中国也排名11343。这是否意味着印度人对编程竞赛比中国人更感兴趣?通过这项统计中得出这样的结论同样也是错误的。

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Given that the company is primarily India centric, there would also be pressure from investors to grow it outside, especially in large markets like China. Such “statistics” quoted in the question help it a bit in that direction.

While the Chinese and Russian and French and Greek programmers might indeed be better than the Indian ones, this HackerRank statistics cannot be used to get any insight.

考虑到该公司主要以印度为中心,投资者也将面临在海外发展的压力,尤其是在中国这样的大型市场。问题中引用的这些“统计数据”在这方面有所帮助。

虽然中国、俄罗斯、法国和希腊的程序员可能确实比印度程序员更好,但HackerRank的统计数据并不能作数。

 

Igor Markov,

Not at all. There are many strong programmers who are gainfully employed and are doing exciting work, say in the Silicon Valley, but could not be bothered by competition programming. Russia and China apparently cannot employ all of their good programmers, which forces young people to spend a lot of time developing competition programming skills (which are very different from practical programming skills). Poland ranks high on the list, but how many successful Polish software companies can you name? In any case, list the most successful software companies and see where they are - that's a lot more reliable than Hacker rank, ICPC, Google Code Jam, Top coder or any other competition. College students in North America, India and Europe often work for those companies in the summer, and then get hired based on their skills. Students in other countries instead practice solving competition problems

Don't get me wrong - the winners of programming competitions are an amazing bunch of people and can be very useful in successful software companies. But contests tell you very little about entire countries.

完全不。在硅谷,有很多优秀的程序员,他们被高薪聘用,从事着令人兴奋的工作,但却不愿为编程竞赛而费心。俄罗斯和中国显然无法让他们所有的优秀程序员都找到工作,这就迫使年轻人要花大量的时间来磨炼编程竞赛的技能(这合实际的编程技能非常不同)。波兰在榜单上排名靠前,但你能说出几家成功的波兰软件公司呢?总之,列出最成功的软件公司,看看他们都在哪里,这比黑客排名,ICPC,谷歌代码堵塞,顶级编码器或任何其他竞争要可靠得多。北美、印度和欧洲的大学生通常在夏季为这些公司工作,然后根据他们的技能被聘用。其他国家的学生则通过实践来解决竞争问题。

别误会——编程竞赛的获胜者是一群了不起的人,他们对成功的软件公司非常有用。但是这些比赛没办法反应整个国家的情况。

 

Nikhil Vidhani,

No that's not true. Absolutely not.

In economics, one of the most common errors is to confuse correlation with causation. That is to falsely predict a cause when only correlation exists.

Lets see a simple example:

If it is found that students who took IIT coaching performed poorly than those who didn't take any coaching. What will you conclude from this data? Most of us will say that coaching are ruining the students. And this is exactly WRONG. We forgot to account that mostly weak students registered for coaching. And since the students were weak on average, their performance is also expected to be lower. Here there is no causation (coaching doesn't weaken students performance) but only correlation (coaching students and weak performers are correlated). And correlation tells nothing in isolation.

不,那不是真的。绝对不是。

在经济学中,最常见的错误之一是混淆了相关性和因果关系。也就是说,当只存在相关性时,错误地预测原因。

让我们看一个简单的例子:

如果我们发现接受过印度理工学院培训的学生比其他学生表现差。你会从这些数据中得出什么结论?我们大多数人会说,辅导毁了学生。这是完全错误的。我们忘了考虑一点,大多数情况下,成绩较差的学生才会报名参加辅导。因为一般而言这些学生的水平较低,对他们表现的预期也较低。这里没有因果关系(辅导不会拉低学生的成绩),只有相关性(辅导学生和表现不佳的学生是相关的)。孤立的相关性说明不了什么。

Lets see one more example:

If it was found that children that are breast feded for a longer duration are comparatively less immune; then what will you conclude? Is breast-feeding bad? No obviously NOT! Here also the weaker children are required longer breast feeding because they are weak to begin with.

So the learning is to not JUMP to CONCLUSIONS without analysing.

再看一个例子:

如果发现母乳喂养时间较长的儿童免疫能力较差;那么你会得出什么结论?母乳喂养是坏事?显然不是!一样的,虚弱的孩子需要更长时间的母乳喂养,因为他们一出生就很虚弱。

因此,在没有分析的情况下,不要妄下结论。

Apply the same logic to the question in hand? Who are more likely to spend all their time in coding contest? Chinese or Indian? Notice that a good coder in India is highly likely to get a job and hence won't compete in a coding competition. And a good Chinese coder is unlikely to get a coding job since software industry is not developed in China and hence he/she is more likely to compete in a competition.

把同样的逻辑应用到这个问题上?谁更有可能把所有的时间都花在编码竞赛上?中国还是印度?请注意,在印度,好的程序员极有可能找到工作,因此不会参加编码竞赛。而好的中国程序员不太可能得到编码的工作,因为软件行业在中国并不发达,因此他/她更有可能参加这种竞赛。

 

Keral Patel, Webmaster

Please leave Indians aside as that is very wrong formula we are always on defensive mode and I can challenge any fucking russian or chinese to hack my clients website. But don’t show off. That is why I get paid and I get paid regularly even if no attacks happens.

请不要扯上印度人,因为这是非常错误,我们总是处于防御模式,我可以对任何入侵我客户网站的俄罗斯人或中国人进行挑战。但不会炫耀。这就是为什么我能得到报酬,而且即使没有这种黑客事件,我也能定期得到报酬。

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Indians don’t code to get a rank they code to feed their stomachs and their parents or kids stomachs. I am not ashamed to write this as I am proud Indian to even write this as it is my duty to do what I have to do.

I have worked with Russian coders in past. They are good no doubt about it. Infact very smart if I had that knowledge I would not even have bothered going this far but would have taken a short cut and made money with 1000 clients.

We Indians are just different we stick with that client.

Russian shortcuts, initial shortcuts and rule bending is not profitable in long run. As it satisfies the client at that time.

印度人编写代码不是为了排名,他们编写代码是为了填饱自己的肚子,填饱父母或孩子的肚子。我不耻于写这些,因为我为印度人感到骄傲,因为我有责任去做我必须做的事情。

我以前和俄罗斯程序员一起工作过。他们无疑是很好的。事实上,他们非常聪明,如果我有这方面的知识,我甚至不会这么费事,而是走捷径,与1000个客户一起赚钱。

我们印度人就是不一样,我们以客户为本。

从长远来看,俄罗斯的捷径、最初的捷径和擦边球行为都是无利可图的。因为它只满足了客户当下的需求。

So for a test or a given task maybe their algo is great and they can solve it in mins. I can do it too. hehe no worries. I can fuck my client up but we have “Karma” shit looming on our heads.

I cannot say anything about American or European Programmers except that they earn more then us, as I am not one of them. But Indian programmers don’t code for winning competitions they code for a living and they know what it takes to remain valuable in that particular company.

Therefore comparing apples with bananas is not a good practice.

When we will take hacking competition seriously believe me India will be number #1.

因此,对于一个测试或一个给定的任务,他们的算法可能是伟大的,他们可以在几分钟内解决。我也可以。呵呵不用担心。我可以把我的客户搞得一团糟,但我们谨记“因果报应”。

关于美国或欧洲的程序员,我只能说他们比我们挣得多,因为我不是他们中的一员。但是印度程序员不是为了赢得竞争而编程,他们是为了生存而编程,他们知道如何在这个特定的公司维持价值。

因此,把苹果和香蕉拿来作比较,并不是一个好的做法。

当我们认真对待黑客竞赛的时候,相信我,印度将无人能敌。

 

Rakesh Wagh, Observer of Indian and American politics

It is a good marketing technique from hacker rank. I wish hacker rank would had posted the stats on where their org's top developers come from. I believe India and US will be a pretty accurate assumption.

You get the point?

There are scores of people trying to find work by spending time on hacker rank and other such channels. While there are scores of other people who have work and would not care to register on hackerranks of the industry. Now will some one run some 'stats' to confirm my assertion that the latter are mostly from India and US?

从hacker rank入手是一个很好的营销技巧。我希望hacker rank能够公布一下组织内顶级开发人员的国籍的统计数据。我相信应该大概率是印度和美国。

明白了吗?

有许多人想通过hacker rank和其他类似的渠道找到工作。但还有很多人本身就有工作,不会急着在hacker rank上注册。现在,有没有人发布“数据”来证实我的断言,即后者主要来自印度和美国?

I say that with all due respect to all the software developers of the world. We all are a great bunch scattered all across the globe. Such stats are not only misleading, they are also incomplete because they lack the underlying analysis of the motivation and logical reasoning towards the accuracy of the conclusion of such studies.

So let us have a great laugh at such stats over a drink and move on to solving some complex real world problem! Now which country wants to lead this race?

我这么说完全是出于对全世界所有软件开发人员的尊重。我们都是分散在世界各地的一个群体。这些数据不仅具有误导性,而且还不完整,因为它们缺乏对这些研究结论的准确性的动机和逻辑推理的根本分析。

所以,让我们喝着酒对这些数据一笑而过吧,然后接着解决复杂的现实世界问题吧!现在哪个国家想要在这个竞赛中领先呢?

 

Harish Kotra, that-tech-guy

I won’t be able to answer anything about the quality of developers in India. But lets look at much more details than just answering broadly over the quality of the programmers from India.

Things to remember (there may be more) about this report are

1.This entire report is based on speed and accuracy of the developers

2.This report is based on the developers registered with HackerRank

3.This report is also based on the number of challenges developers have solved on HackerRank

我无法回答有关印度软件开发人员水平的任何问题。但让我们多关注一下细节,不要只是笼统地回答印度程序员的水平问题。

关于这份报告需要记住的(可能还有更多)是

1.整份报告基于开发人员的速度和准确度

2.此报告基于在HackerRank注册的开发人员

3.该报告还基于开发人员在HackerRank上解决的挑战数量

Its de-facto to react to this report saying “Are Indians really that bad?”, “Is this report wrong?”, “Is this report biased?” and so on. But remember the above points and ask yourself, if you are a developer and if you are on HackerRank.

Developers in India are not much focused on competitive programming, solving challenges etc., and also most of them do freelance, remote development and other things. HackerRank is not just the only platform right? I have known many student developers who have been ranked top in TopCoder, CodeChef and others too. So, going just by this report and judging the quality is definitely not something you should do.

实际上它是在回应这份报告:“印度人真的那么糟糕吗?”、“这份报告错了吗?”、“这份报告是不是有偏见?”等等。但是请记住以上几点,并问问您自己,您是不是开发人员,您是否在HackerRank上注册。

印度的开发人员不太关注竞争性编程、解决挑战等,而且他们中的大多数人从事自由职业、远程开发等工作。HackerRank不是唯一的平台,对吧?我认识许多学生开发人员,他们在TopCoder、CodeChef等平台也名列前茅。所以,光靠这份报告来判断编程员的水平绝对不是你应该做的事情。

 

Rahul Funde, Editor

Ever since last 2–3 years China is topper in every single list that have been published since that period.

Be it Forbes or GQ or Business insider or what not? China went from only 4 companies in top 200 to 20–30 that includes pathetic like alibaba. Really? Are you really stupid enough to be fooled by them?

I have been outsourcing my programming work through various freelancing sites and never came across a Chinese. And moreover people who created Microsoft/Google/Facebook and what not are om 28th. And you are still believing these propaganda champions. Good luck to your IQ.

从2-3年前开始,中国在每一份榜单上都名列前茅。

不论是《福布斯》、《GQ》还是《商业内幕》等,无一不是?在世界200强中,中国从之前仅有只有4家公司,增加到20-30家,其中就包括了阿里巴巴。真的吗?你真的蠢到被他们愚弄了吗?

我一直通过各种自由职业网站外包我的编程工作,从未遇到过中国人。此外,创造了微软/谷歌/Facebook等的美国,只排在第28位。你们居然还相信这种宣传软文。真该为你的智商充充值了呢。

 

Mohit Shukla, studied at Indian Institute of Technology Varanasi

If a person’s Mathematics Knowledge & Skills are any indication of how Good a programmer he can be then China’s first and India’s 31st rank makes sense.China has been doing exceptionally well in International Mathematical Olympiad for past several years. Since 2000, china has bagged the 1st position record twelve times, they have been runner up 4 times and at 3rd place once.India on other hand has been finishing between twenties and thirties, with the best performance of 7 coming in 2001.

如果一个人的数学知识和技能就可以说明他是多么优秀的程序员,那么中国的第一名和印度的第31名是有意义的。在过去的几年里,中国在国际数学奥林匹克竞赛中取得了优异的成绩。自2000年以来,中国已经12次打破世界纪录,4次获得亚军,1次获得季军。另一方面,印度在20世纪20年代到30年代开始没落,其中表现最好的是2001年,排在第7名。 

 

Sashank Reddy, works at Neato Robotics

I cannot consider the list to be genuine if China is ranked no1 and USA at 28. Thats absolute bs. All the work computer science and fundamental research happens in US. Every programming language and compiler ever written has been done in US. Every other dot com solution was provided by Indians. The relation was good. Americans made the tools and we would create customised end to end solutions.

The quality of developers improves with experience. What ever metric they used clearly doesnt tell the facts on ground.

如果中国排第1位,美国排第28位,那么我认为这份名单太假了。这绝对是垃圾。所有的计算机科学和基础研究都是在美国进行的。所有的编程语言和编译器都是在美国编写的。其他所有的.com解决方案都是由印度人提供的。美国人准备好了工具,我们则创建定制端到端的解决方案。

开发人员的质量随着经验而提高。他们使用的任何衡量标准都不能清楚地反应实际情况。

 

Syed Fawad Hussain,

No, i think it’s a bit exaggeration or a probabilistic error. I don’t think so that quality-wise Chinese programmers rank 1st. I would say quantity-wise Chinese programmers could have beaten others(in a survey of above average programmers) because it’s huge country but India at 31st sounds a bit different story.

As far as my experience and observation is concerned, US and UK programmers are unbeatable. It’s not about quantity or anything else—i would say best programmer should have ability to revolutionize the software field. He/she should be innovative, novel and unique.

不,我想这有点夸张,或者是概率误差。我不认为中国程序员在质量上能排名第一。我想说的是,在数量方面,中国程序员本可以击败其他国家的程序员(在一项针对平均水平以上程序员的调查中),因为中国是个大国,但印度排在第31位,听起来又是另一回事儿了。

就我的经验和观察而言,美国和英国的程序员是无与伦比的。这无关乎数量或其他任何东西—我认为最好的程序员应该有能力革新软件领域。要有创新精神、别出心裁、独辟蹊径。

 

Bohdan Pryshchenko,

I agree that China ranks 1st globally and India ranks 31st in some rating describing a programming activities which are considered as not related at all to real programming by a lot of programmers - mostly competitive programming, plus some other stuff like basic exercises on language syntax. On a site which is considered as having nothing to do with real competitive programming by a lot of high-level competitive programmers - a lot of top-level contestants either don’t have profile there at all or only attend it rarely. Using average value which says nothing about distribution or number/percentage of people who are above particular cutoff and is strongly dependent on who’s using the site - everybody in the country or only top-level folks.

我同意中国在编程领域排名中全球第一,印度排名第31,很多程序员认为这些编程活动与真正的编程没有任何关系——主要是编程竞赛和一些其他的,比如语言语法的基本练习。在一个被很多有竞争力的高级程序员认为与真正的竞争性编程无关的网站上——许多顶级的参赛者要么根本没有个人资料,要么很少参加。而以平均值计算并不能说明超过特定界限的用户分布或数量/百分比,这严重依赖于使用该网站的用户——全体国民或仅是最高阶层。

 

Srinivasa Rao

No, I don’t agree that on any ranking for “programmer quality,” China would rank even one position higher than India, or be the top ranker in the world.

The table displayed in the question is of HackerRank at some particular date. Hacking alone, that too by few active members of some website, is not representative of global programming quality.

I have seen software written by Chinese developers, and those were/are some of the lousiest code I have ever seen. Full of bugs and security issues. Although I am not sure if the security issues are intentional.

不,我不认为任何“程序员水平”排名中,中国会比印度高出哪怕就一个名次,或者排名世界第一。

问题中这个表是某个特定日期的HackerRank的情况。有些网站的活跃用户很少,单靠黑客并不能代表全球编程水平。

我看到过中国开发人员编写的软件,那些代码是我见过的最糟糕的代码。通篇都是错误和安全隐患。虽然我不确定安全隐患是否是故意的。

 

Anonymous

The USA rank is actually 128 thanks to India her rank rises to 28 while India rank number 1 drops to 31.

I went to school with both Indians and Chineses. I know them both.Indians are good at inventing while Chineses are good at copycatting and regurgitating memorized facts.

Kudos to India and God Bless the USA.

美国的排名实际上是128,多亏了印度,她的排名上升到28,而印度的排名下降到31。

我和印度人、中国人一起上学。我对他们都很了解。印度人擅长发明,而中国人擅长模仿和死记硬背。

向印度致敬,愿上帝保佑美国。

 

amit

Interesting question. Being in industry I can tell you, it does not matter what competitions you win. Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk won no competition. Multiple skills are needed to succeed in real world. Competitions do not test those.

So China ranking higher than India has no meaning. Russia should rank higher than India though.

这是个很有趣的问题。我就身处这个行业,我可以告诉你,赢得什么竞争并不重要。杰夫·贝索斯、马克·扎克伯格、埃隆·马斯克都没有竞争中获胜。想在现实世界中获得成功,需要多种技能。竞争并不会考验这些技能。

因此,中国排名高于印度毫无意义。不过,俄罗斯的排名应该也高于印度。

 

AnnT

Agree. China is good at high end of programmer.

India is cheap doing low end of IT

同意。中国的高端程序员很不错。

印度做的比较多的是IT行业的初级岗位,工资较低。

 

Adil Raja, Security&Political Analyst

China is 1st undoubtedly, but keeping India at 31st is not fair. Low literary rate in India is to blame for these rankings though.

毫无疑问,中国是第一,但要说印度排在第31名,是不公平的。不过印度文盲率较高,是导致这类排名的罪魁祸首。

 

Vivek Dhavale, love to read , upsc aspirant ,

no , in the context of computer and software concerns india is above then China

不,在计算机和软件领域,印度的地位高于中国。

外文链接:https://www.quora.com/In-terms-of-programmer-quality-do-you-agree-that-China-ranks-1st-globally-while-India-ranks-31st

三泰虎原创译文,禁止转载!:首页 > 印度人看中国 » 中国程序员水平全球第一印度第33,网友:印度人做的多是IT初级岗位

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