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Quora: 印尼高铁选择中国而非日本,错了吗?

Is Indonesia making a mistake to choose China instead of Japan for their new high speed rail project?

印度尼西亚选择中国,而非日本,帮他们修建新的高铁,错了吗?

quora网友讨论:

Mitchell Wang, IBDP student and about to NYU

Answered Feb 29 2016

Mistake? There is no mistake in international relationship. There is only advantages and disadvantages. Every action has its own reasons.

错?国际关系总无谓对错,只有优劣。每个决定都是有原因的。

Back to the question.

First let's talk about high speed rail itself. Although the quality of rail from Japan is better than that from China, but the rail from China is also very good. However, have you ever thought about the price? It is much more lower! For Indonesia which is a developing country, she should concern about price

回到问题本身。

首先,我们来谈谈高铁。虽然日本的高铁技术由于中国,但是中国的高铁已经很好了。然而,你考虑过价格吗?中国的高铁可是便宜的多!对印尼这个发展中国家来说,价格也是一个考虑因素。

The core of this problem is not the railway itself!

Every action from any country has its politic reason. As an country which is familiar with the United States, Indonesia used to have many problems with China. It is a excellent time for two countries to ease the relationship.

这个问题的核心不是高铁本身!

任何国家的任何决定都有政治因素。作为一个和美国关系密切的国家,印尼过去和中国曾有过很多摩擦。现在是两国之间缓和关系的大好时机。

 

Richard Chapman, Lived for a while in China

Answered Feb 29 2016 · Author has 525 answers and 227.4k answer views

I believe so, and given my prejudices, I feel the answer is self-evident:

我认为是错的,虽然我有偏见,但我觉得答案不言而喻:

Anyone who has ridden the Japanese Shinkansen cannot help but think that the build quality, engineering and operations are superior in every way. The safety record speaks for itself, and in a developing country where every other aspect of life involves sometimes dangerous compromises, it would be an object of pride to Indonesians to have a system built by the Japanese, unlike what happened at Wenzhou and the ongoing concerns about the quality of Chinese concreting of bridges.

任何一个坐过日本新干线的人都认为,它的建设质量、工程设计和运营在各个方面都非常优秀的。安全记录不言而喻,在一个发展中国家,生活充满妥协,有时候这个妥协还有可能是危险的。让日本打造这样一个系统将是印尼人民的一个骄傲,不像曾经发生在温州的事故那样,也不像总是让人担忧的中国桥梁的质量。

Both countries, as I understand it, offered generous concessional financing, but do expect to involve their own workforces in construction, which I think given Indonesia's current standard of development, is necessary. Any perception that Japan ought to be the more expensive option, like choosing a Japanese car over a Chinese one, is not well founded in this case

我能理解,这两个国家都向印尼提供了慷慨的优惠融资方案,但希望在建设中使用他们自己的建设工人,考虑到印尼目前的发展水平,这是必要的。在这种情况下,任何认为日本应该是更昂贵的选择(比如选择日本车而不是中国车)的看法都是不成立的。

Japan experiences corruption at senior levels, but is not ridden with the systemic corruption at every level, as China is. It would be to the Indonesian's best interest to ensure that ethical business behaviour is observed at every stage of design, construction and operation, even if we can be sure that some LDP politicians in Japan are bound to be profitting from it personally.

日本经历了高层的腐败,但并没有像中国那样在各个层面都充斥着系统性的腐败。确保在设计、建设和运营的每个阶段都遵守道德商业行为,这才符合印尼的最大利益。即使我们可以确信,日本的一些自民党政客肯定获得个人利益。

And it would transmit a clear and recognisable signal across Asia - that quality is not the preserve of the Europeans; that bullying tactics and endemic corruption does not have to be the way of life.

另外,这也将在亚洲传递一种清晰可识的信号,质量不是欧洲人的专利;这种恃强凌弱的策略和地方性的腐败并不一定是生活的本来面貌。

 

Iqbal Ezra, An Obeserver, A dreamer and A Builder

Updated Apr 16 2017 · Author has 213 answers and 98.8k answer views

As an Indonesian this is my answer.

作为印尼人,以下是我的回答:

Its baffling to me reading the answers given none of them are Indonesians, none of them know the country apart from the so called “misconceptions” and would quickly believe the first negativity that pops up, but hey this is Quora so everyone that think they got a brain and can read and write can pitch in.

令人困惑的是,我阅读了其他人的回复,没有一个时印尼人回答的。这些人中除了所谓“错误想法”,对印尼一无所知。他们很快就对第一个弹出的消极回复表示相信、赞同,但嘿,这是果壳网耶,每个人都觉得他们自己拥有一个会读会写能参与其中的大脑。

A mistake or not would not be apparent until the lines have been completed and fully operational. So don’t get to carried away by this whole HSR image boosting thing.

错误与否,要等到高铁完工,正式通行之后才能看清楚。所以,不要只是看到高铁效果图就忘乎所以了。

Indonesia chose China because of two very simple reason. Closer partnership and more favourable financial incentives. Everyone in Indonesia knows that the Japanese have better tech know how in HSR, but they are stingy in the tech transfer side and their terms forced the Indonesian to favour China.

印尼之所以选择中国,原因很简单。为了更紧密的伙伴关系和更有利的财政激励。印尼人都知道,日本人有更好的高铁技术,但他们在技术转让方面很小气,他们的条款迫使印尼支持中国。

But all is not lost on Japan. A second line between Jakarta and Surabaya has recently been agreed upon and the Japanese are set to developed the line and they learned the lesson from being beaten by China in the Jakarta to Bandung line.

但日本也不是一无所获。雅加达和泗水之间的第二条线路最近已经敲定,日本人也准备参与竞标这条线路,他们从错失雅加达至万隆的高铁建设中吸取了教训。

So if you think Indonesia is wooed by China alone than that is not the case. Indonesia is dancing with both countries.

因此,如果你认为印尼只是被中国所吸引,其实事实并非如此。印尼正和这两个国家共舞。

A mistake or not only time will tell and in the mean time we as Indonesians prefer to partner with whom ever is less biased and less hypocritical and treat us as equals.

错误与否只能交由时间来告诉我们,在这段时间里,我们印尼人更愿意和那些不那么有偏见、不那么虚伪、平等对待我们的人合作。

Lets face it Indonesia is far from perfect and so is the rest of the world, but at least we are not “a stuck up jerk nation that point fingers at others while hiding and ignoring the very same problem domestically and acting like the saviour of the world”

让我们面对现实吧,印尼远非十全十美,世界其他国家也都如此,但至少我们不是“一个傲慢的混蛋国家,对别人指指点点,同时却隐瞒和忽视自身同样的问题,表现得自己像个救世主”

 

Banh Dau

Answered Nov 20 2017 · Author has 535 answers and 125.7k answer views

I don’t know about Indonesia, but in Vietnam, many projects in Hanoi are being built by Chinese contractors, and there are regrets now, because of delays, cost overrun, quality and safety issues. While in Saigon, projects being built by Japanese firms experience very few of those problems. So even though the Chinese firms got the initial bids lower in price than Japanese firms, in the end, it may prove to be more expensive, with lower quality.

我对印尼不了解,但在越南,大多数河内的工程都是中国施工队修建的,现在很多人因为工程延期,预算超标,质量安全隐患等等问题开始后悔。在西贡,日本人城建的工程很少遇到这些问题。所以即使中国企业一开始用比日本企业低的价格招标,最终造价可能更高,质量更差。

 

Samuel Anggono, lives in Surabaya, Indonesia

Answered Nov 20 2017 · Author has 123 answers and 5.4k answer views

No. They made the right choice. China goods not always bad. They can and always produce high grade products for their own country and only make bad products because the market demands it. People actually ask for a Mercedes Benz with the price of Avanza as figure of speech. And in terms of politics, China is a rising dragon while America is a dying old man with past glory. And Japan is just (sorry), not as great as America even. And Japan experienced growth stagnation, it worrysome that they could still maintain the market demand of higher and higher quality with their dying market growth

没有错,印尼做了正确的选择。中国的商品并不都是差的。他们能够而且一直为本国生产高质量商品,只是向对劣质商品有需求的市场提供这类商品。事实上,打个比方,人们想用阿万扎的价格买到奔驰车。就政治因素而言,中国是崛起的巨龙,而美国已是不复往昔辉煌的迟暮之年。日本只是(对不起)没有美国那么伟大。日本经历了经济增长停滞,他们本国市场垂死挣扎,他们担心是否能维持对越来越高的质量的市场需求。

 

Danny Wang, I rejected the CCP to join them.

Answered Feb 29, 2016 · Author has 62 answers and 42.7k answer views

My answer is simple: You get what you pay for. Questions of the same nature could be:

我的回答很简单:一分钱一分货。同样的问题可能是:

Is it a mistake to buy a 500-dollar Asus instead of a 2000-dollar Alienware, since basically they're both laptops with pretty similar functions?

既然都是笔记本,功能也相差不大,那买500美金的华硕,而不是2000美金的戴尔外星人,错了吗?

Is it a mistake to buy a 5,000-dollar Toyota instead of a 200,000 dollar Land Rover, since basically they're both cars with pretty similar functions?

既然都是汽车,功能都差不多,那买5000美金的丰田,而不是200000美金的路虎,错了吗?

Is it a mistake to buy a 50-dollar made-in-China watch instead of a 5,000-dollar Swiss luxury watch, since basically they're both watches with pretty similar functions?

既然都是手表,功能都差不多,那买50美金的中国手表,而不是5000美金的瑞士高档手表,错了吗?

The list can go on endlessly- but you get my idea, it's all about affordability.

这种问题数不胜数,但你心里自有答案,看你能不能买得起罢了。

 

Darwin Sujaya, lives in Bandung, West Java, Indonesia

Answered Nov 20, 2017 · Author has 266 answers and 87.7k answer views

No.

China do have the largest railway network. They have tons of experience. If you ever use their railway you will know it is a good efficient railway. Right now Japan and China competing to invest in infrastructure. It is a good idea for our government to use this to our advantage like ask them to transfer the technology.

没错。

中国拥有最长的铁路网。他们经验丰富。如果你坐过他们的火车,你就会知道这有多高效。现在日本和中国在投资基建方面进行竞争。我们的政府利用这一点为我们争取利益,比如要求他们转让高铁技术,这是很好的主意。

 

Maulana Akbar, lives in Jakarta

Answered Jan 19, 2017

Honestly, I totally upset with government that pick China than Japan. As we know, Japan is more established-technology than China. As well as China — in many people`s perspective — has bad quality products. Though I believe government had carefully consideration while making that decision.

老实说,我对政府选择中国而非日本,感到不安。我们都知道,日本的技术水平超过中国。在很多人眼中,中国制造质量堪忧。虽然我相信政府会做出决定时会谨慎考虑的。

 

Jiehui Huang

Answered Nov 23, 2017 · Upvoted by Matthew Jacobus, lived in Jakarta (2000-2017)

Yes.

Singapore uses Chinese techs for it’s MRT system. And as all know, Singapore's MRT is known for being a huge mess. Delays every two days or so, for 15–20 minutes up to several hours. Collisions (which the media is trying to cover up), flooded tunnels and service disruptions that happens about once every week.

While Japan apologizes because one of their trains is 20 SECONDS EARLY!

You decide.

是个错误。

新加坡采用中国技术修建地铁。现在大家都知道的,新加坡的地铁以混乱著称。每两天或每几天总会出现延误,从15-20分钟到数个小时都有可能。撞车(媒体会想办法遮掩),隧道淹水,服务中断,每周都会发生。

日本呢,甚至为列车提前20秒到站,公开道歉。

所以,答案你自己决定咯。

 

Zhiqiang Tang

Answered Jan 6, 2018

the UK made the opposite choice, see what happened for yourself, High-speed train delayed on first journey

英国做了相反的选择,看看发生了什么,高铁首趟运行就出现延误。

 

Terry Haas, M.A. from Western Illinois University (1981)

Answered Nov 20, 2017 · Author has 396 answers and 26.2k answer views

In light of Japan’s extensive experience with high speed rail, it could well prove to be a mistake in choosing China over Japan. However, since China’s has engaged in targeted corporate espionage they have been able to improve their R & D, thus improving quality of the products they now manufacture. I think the most significant factor might be that Japan has a record of excellent tech support for their products… I don’t think China is quite there yet. Let the rider beware.

鉴于日本在高速铁路方面的丰富经验,选择中国而不选日本,这可能注定是一个错误。然而,由于中国已经进行了有针对性的商业间谍活动,他们已经改善技术研发,从而提高产品的质量。我认为最重要的因素可能是日本的产品技术支持非常优秀,中国还没有达到这个水平。让坐车的人小心点。

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