2015-05-23 13:44 109个评论 字号:

谅山,越南北部的一个城市。在这个城市多个战争公墓之中的一个,Pham Thi KY和她的家人焚香祭奠她的姐夫。36年前,他死在越南与中国的短暂却血腥的边境战争中。1979年的战争造成超过50000人死亡。这里也有其他的坟墓,比如说和法国占领者、美国人战斗中的牺牲者。但相对于中国,那都是些短暂的战斗。多个世纪以来,没有哪个国家象中国一样在越南人心中占有如此大的比重。当Pham Thi KY她点燃另一支蜡烛时,我问她:“曾经和中国的冲突真的结束了吗”。

来源:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com/bbs/thread-347191-1-1.html


Ask The Vietnamese About War, And They Think China, Not The U.S.


In one of the many war cemeteries in Lang Son, a city in northern Vietnam, Pham Thi Ky and her family light incense and offer prayers for her brother-in-law, who died 36 years ago in Vietnam’s brief but bloody border war with China.

That 1979 war left more than 50,000 dead. There are other graves here, too. They fought and died against the French occupiers, then the Americans. But relative to China, those were brief battles.

No country weighs on Vietnam like China, and it has been that way for centuries. Has the conflict with China ever really ended, I ask Pham Thi Ky as she lights another candle.
“No,” she says. Her daughter agrees. Her sister is even more emphatic. “It will never end. With the Chinese, how can it ever end?”

谅山,越南北部的一个城市。在这个城市多个战争公墓之中的一个,Pham Thi KY和她的家人焚香祭奠她的姐夫。36年前,他死在越南与中国的短暂却血腥的边境战争中。


多个世纪以来,没有哪个国家象中国一样在越南人心中占有如此大的比重。当Pham Thi KY她点燃另一支蜡烛时,我问她:“曾经和中国的冲突真的结束了吗”。


Vietnam’s 2,000 year history with its northern neighbor is complex. There have been countless conflicts as well as shared culture. The Temple of Literature in Hanoi is a good example. It was built by the Vietnamese King Ly Thánh Tông in 1070 to honor the Chinese philosopher Confucius. The teachings on the walls are written in Chinese characters. China is also Vietnam’s largest trading partner.
The two countries share a communist ideology shaped in part by their shared history, an ideology largely abandoned by the rest of the world. That helps explain why the 1979 border war is something neither government likes to talk about. But Nguyen Duy Thuc, a veteran of that war, is happy to.
“On the morning of the attack, February 17th, we were sleeping when the Chinese artillery started, then we all ran to our posts,” he says. “Some were dressed, others didn’t even have time to put their pants on, they just ran to their posts to fight.”

2000年来,越南它的北方邻居关系极其复杂。在无数的冲突同时共享文化。在河内的文庙是一个很好的例子。越南国王Ly TháNH TôNG 1070建造以供奉中国哲学家孔子。墙壁上的教导都是用汉字写的。另外中国是越南最大的贸易伙伴。
部分源于他们共同的历史,两国都具有共产主义意识形态,一个很大程度上被世界其他部分所抛弃的思想。这有助于解释为什么两国政府都不喜欢谈论1979的边境战争。但是Nguyen Duy,一个那次战争的老兵,愿意谈论这个话题。

At least 200,000 Chinese troops poured into northern Vietnam all along the border. China was aiming to punish Vietnam for its invasion of Cambodia the month before to oust the Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. There were so many Chinese attacking, Nguyen Duy Thuc remembers, that the soldiers in his bunker “fired our AK-47s until the muzzles turned red and they couldn’t fire anymore.”
But the Chinese kept coming; eventually his bunker was overrun. The Chinese, he says, pumped gas into the ventilation system. There were 800 people, including soldiers, women and children, who fled the fighting in his bunker, Nguyen says.
Only he and two others managed to escape. After nearly a month, the Chinese withdrew, though border clashes continued for the next decade. And Nguyen Duy Thuc hasn’t forgotten. If he catches his wife trying to watch a Chinese movie, he turns it off.
Memories of that war, and the many other bouts of invasion, occupation and retaliation throughout history, color Vietnam’s relationship with China.

至少有200000中国军队进入了越南北部沿边境。因为月前越南入侵了柬埔寨,推翻了中国支持的红色高棉,中国为此发起了惩戒。有这么多的中国人发起进攻,Nguyen Duy记得:“士兵在他的地堡用AK-47射击直到枪口变红,无法开火为止。”


只有他和另外两人得以逃脱。一个月后,中国收兵。在下个十年中,中国和越南的边界冲突一直持续。Nguyen Duy永远忘不了这场战争。如今,如果他在家里发现妻子看中国电影的时候,一定会去关掉。


That’s especially true now, with the two countries at odds over what Vietnam views as Chinese expansionism in the South China Sea. When China parked an oil rig in contested waters last year, Vietnam upped its official anti-China rhetoric.
And anti-China rioting left at least a dozen dead, including four Taiwanese mistaken for Chinese. As tension grew, and Chinese and Vietnamese boats played a dangerous game of chicken near the rig, some in the border town of Lang Son grew worried. They feared a repeat of what happened in 1979.
“Last year, we were very frightened. We started stockpiling rice and food. I was very worried that there would be war,” says Pham Thi Ky, the woman at the cemetery.
Back in 1979, she says she was forced to flee with nothing but the clothes on her back, so this time she wanted to be prepared. She even went to the bank to withdraw a large sum of money, just in case. But the bank wouldn’t give it to her, apparently fearing a run.
Vietnam isn’t the only one worried.


一场反华暴乱导致了12人死亡,包括四名误认为大陆人的台湾人。两国关系持续紧张,中越船只在南海玩起了危险的游戏(chicken near the rig)。有的在边境城镇–谅山的人开始担心1979重演。

“去年,我们非常害怕,开始储存大米和其他食物” Pham Thi KY在墓地中跟我说。



The Obama administration’s “pivot toward Asia” is prompted, in part, by the idea of trying to contain China’s expansionism, which has its Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.
In the South China Sea, China continues to build on several disputed islands and reefs. In April, satellite photos revealed China was constructing a 2-mile-long, military-grade runway on Fiery Cross Reef, prompting howls of protest from the Philippines and Vietnam, both of which claim the island as their own.
“We think this can be solved diplomatically, but just because the Philippines or Vietnam are not as large as China doesn’t mean that they can just be elbowed aside,” President Obama said.




Duong Trung Quoc, a member of Vietnam’s National Assembly and editor of the magazine Past & Present, says, “I think China is not only Vietnam’s problem, but the world’s problem right now.”
Duong says he admires how China appears to be the only civilization in history to have forced its way back onto the world stage after an interregnum.
“It didn’t happen with Greece, or India,” he says. “But China has a chance.”

Duong Trung Quoc,越南人大代表和杂志《过去与现在》编辑一说,“我认为中国不仅是越南的问题,而且是世界的问题。”



And that’s a problem, he contends, because China still thinks the way it used to back when it was on top.
“China thinks it is at the center. The conquerer. It wants to turn everybody else into its subordinates,” he says. Don’t believe China, Duong says, when it appears to be playing nice. It’s a trap. The Vietnamese, he says, should know.
“After the war, the Vietnamese and the Americans could reconcile. Vietnam and France can reconcile. Veterans from both sides can sit down together and talk. Vietnamese and Chinese veterans hardly ever sit down together,” he says.
Why is this?
“The Vietnamese have had too much experience with the Chinese. The Vietnamese can’t trust the Chinese. We’ve had too much practice,” he adds.
Few in Vietnam’s government talk so openly about the perceived threat from their northern neighbor. They’re wary of igniting more protests, like those last year. And Vietnam’s Communist Party still looks to China as a model of how to keep an authoritarian state in power in the Internet age. But anti-Chinese sentiment among ordinary Vietnamese continues to grow.
Vo Cao Loi lives about a mile from the South China Sea — which the Vietnamese simply call the East Sea — in the central Vietnam city of Danang, where the first U.S. combat troops landed in 1965.
He says he’s a survivor of a massacre next to My Lai, one that claimed 97 lives, including his mother. He no longer considers the Americans enemies, but rather as friends. Allies, even, against Vietnam’s longtime enemy. He believes the Chinese have taken something that belongs to Vietnam.







Vo Cao Lo生活在越南中部岘港市距南中国海(越南称东海)约一英里的地方。岘港,在1965年,第一支美国作战部队于此登陆。


“The Spratly and Paracels (islands) are still partly occupied,” he says. “Of course at some point we have to put our differences aside, but we have to get those islands back first. Because it belongs to our ancestors.”
It doesn’t take him long to acknowledge that probably won’t happen.
“They want to spread their control. They will never give back what they took,” he adds. “Vietnam wants to take it back, but the Chinese are strong. So our struggle will last a long time. How long? I can’t tell.”





Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
“The Temple of Literature in Hanoi is a good example. It was built by the Vietnamese King Ly Thánh Tông in 1070 to honor the Chinese philosopher Confucius. The teachings on the walls are written in Mandarin.”
I think the writer meant Chinese characters. Mandarin is a dialect. Other dialects, as well as other languages, also use the Chinese characters. Chinese is comparable to Latin. It was used by scholars and officials.

“在河内的文庙是一个很好的例子。越南国王Ly TháNH TôNG 1070建造以供奉中国哲学家孔子。墙壁上的教导都是用普通话写的。”


Guest-》Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
Absolutely correct, but Mandarin is very complex and the writer is evidently still trying to master the English language: “The Obama Adminstration’s “pivot toward Asia” is prompted in part with the idea of trying to contain China’s expansionism, which has it’s Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.”

For the gazillionth time, Journalsists: “it’s” means “it is!” The possessive of “it” is “its!”


hoang nguyen -》 Hmmmmmmmmmm • 9 days ago
Technically it’s not Chinese but Classical Chinese or chữ Nho in Vietnamese. Even modern Chinese will find the writings hard to decipher.

从技术上讲,这不是现代汉语,是古典汉语或者越南人说的chữ Nho,即是现代中国人也很难解读。

Peter Melzer -》 Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
The shame is that a French monk in the early 19th century introduced an alphabet which replaced Vietnamese ideographic writing. As a result only some Vietnamese scholars are able to read old texts and know about pre-French history from their own country’s perspective.


Clovis Sangrail -》 Peter Melzer • 10 days ago
The same thing is true in Turkey, which replaced the Arabic alphabet with Roman 80 years ago. Many years ago, I spent an afternoon at the Museum of Turkish and Islamic Art in Istanbul and was admiring an ebony tablet with an inscription in Arabic characters inlaid in the tablet in mother of pearl. A Turkish student who wanted to practice his English attached himself to me and struck up a conversation with “I wonder what it is?” I said that it was obviously a poem. I think he was a bit irritated that a frenk (“European”) like me would presume to make a pronouncement about his culture that he wasn’t able to make himself. His voice rose as he asked me how I could possibly know that. I said that every other line ended in the same group of characters; in short, it rhymed. He triumphantly jabbed his index finger at the right-hand margin, showing me that what I had said wasn’t true. Indeed, there was no repetitive pattern to be seen on the right-hand side of the text. I am sure he thought he had scored a nakaut (“knockout”), and I let him enjoy his imaginary victory, not pointing out to him that Arabic is written from right to left. He was pointing at the wrong side of the tablet. In any case, there is nothing stopping the Vietnamese from transcribing their ancient texts into the modern orthographic system.

类似的事情发生在土耳其,80年前罗马字母取代了阿拉伯字母。许多年前,我花了一个下午的时间在伊斯坦布尔的土耳其和ysl艺术博物馆里欣赏一个有阿拉伯文字铭文的嵌珍珠母乌木片。一个想练习英语的土耳其学生缠上了我,以“我有点好奇这是什么”和我开始对话。我告诉他,这明显是一首诗。我想他有点恼火,因为一个frenk,欧洲人可以对他他本国文化解读,而他却不能。他的嗓门提高了,问我是怎么知道的。我告诉他很明显每一行结尾于同一组字母,简单地说,就是押韵。他得意洋洋地用食指猛戳右手边缘,表示他不信我所言。确实,在文本的右边没有重复的模式。我可以肯定,他一定觉得自己进了个nakaut (“knockout”),我让他去欣赏自己的虚幻胜利,没有告诉他阿拉伯文是从右向左书写的。他指错了铭文的边。不管怎么说,没有什么能阻止越南人将他们的古老文本抄录至现代文字系统。

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  1. 这篇文章歪曲意思很厉害啊,这种关系调查的文章本事要具有一定代表性必须进行调查,面向不同群体然后总和较多,之后文章还断章取义说我们中国人难懂古文,呵呵。美分亡我之心不死

  2. 为什么会有越南这个国家?事实上北越是中国的一部分,南越是高棉(柬埔寨)的一部分。根本就没有越南人,为什么会有越南这个国家?

  3. 五年内,在越南出现乌克兰式的颜色革命是可以期待的。大家会发现这些猴子10多年攒下的几两银子,一个早上就会被瓜分。只会剩下一堆越南盾。现在的越南政治结构非常不稳定,越共的地位下降,越共内部的分歧已经公开化,越共的战斗力已经下降。说不定哪把火就能翻了船。

    • 到越共倒台时山姆又要发兵介入,那是中国为了南大门安全也要出兵对抗,这越南真TM是个悲催国家,甚至还会影响到住在云南的我!

  4. 这种典型以偏概全的文章,要抹黑中华家。 我就和死党聊过这问题,他厂里出口到越南的生产线,安装工人在那边都没事,那时越南已经有很多反华游行,虽然不是最后爆发暴乱的时间。不是说猴子对我们很好,并不是所有人都有那么深的仇恨,其实也有很多利字当头的人,赚钱才是最要紧。

  5. 我的认识是之所以这些国家仍然对中国不服 是因为中国还不够狠 我想说的是要么不打 要打就彻底从精神上击溃他们 人从骨子里崇尚强者 至于所做的是善事还是恶事是可以让时间洗刷掉的 所以越南听的懂的话只有拳头 我们应该摒弃传统文化中可笑的仁义 这之于国与国关系根本就是行不通的路

  6. 虽然那些猴子刚从树上下来不久,但是他们也知道美国人的侵略不是想要占领越南领土,而中国的压制就极其可怕了,可怕之处并不是在于武力的压制,而是在于政治经济文化的各方面的压制。所以70年代末宁可被中国教训也要挑衅中国,使得中国对越南的影响最小化。其实个人感觉越南人的这个战略对于他们自己是正确的,用士兵的伤亡换取中国对越南影响力的下降,效果如何还要看我们中国自己是否持续强大,只要中国强大下去,任何战略战术都是不堪一击的。

    • 我同意你的观点。越南人对美国人的仇恨只限于那些受过伤害的人,其他的人的记忆早已被胜利和时间所磨灭。而对中国的仇恨则是因为距今时间更短,并且越南并未取得实质性的胜利,加上宣传上的引导,导致大多数的人并未遗忘。

  7. 我对猴子的逻辑已经不想认真辩驳了,大体说一下结果就是,现在越南骂着中国骂着中国货但是依旧往中国卖女人,骂着中国侵占领土但是政府还是不敢和***闹翻谁让你们也是社会主义呢,而且我们怎么打他他也别指望东盟会帮忙,越南傻B不傻B我已经不在乎,反正东南亚猴子都这尿性,越南在东南亚算混的不错的,但是打死他也不敢动中国,所以整天除了酸还是酸,和印度一个尿性,说句调侃的话,你们这些猴子去印度说不定会被当哈奴曼供起来的呦,看看历史就知道,只要中国别内乱那么周围这些国家都不敢轻易动我们,最后表扬一下几个美国佬,歪楼歪的好,而且难得看见有点知识储量的美国人

  8. 美国挑拨中国与邻国关系的手段,前几天刚披露过一个印度赴美留学生论文被利用挑拨中印关系的案例。这篇文章一定会在越南国内被大肆转载。最近美国在中国周边布雷越来越疯狂,薅不着羊毛坐不住了,想打仗。

    • 你错了越南之所以恨中国是因为他们和我们打战是离现在最近的!就像假如二十年前有个人打伤了你,20年后你绝对不会再恨他,但是假如昨天有人打你,没怎么打伤你,你也会恨之入骨的信不信??[思考]

    • 中国陆军号称世界陆战之王那可不是吃素的,不管你们怎么听外国人瞎说,事实上中国几乎灭了越南北方,谁胜谁败一目了然!不要听信外国那群弱智瞎说!

  9. 我一直奇怪怎么会有人愿意和美国做邻居?墨西哥不惨?那些岛国不惨?加拿大是不惨,但是加拿大算一个主权国家吗?越南和美国做邻居是打算羊入虎口吗?

  10. 越南人虽然有志气,但是智商和谋略实在是太low了怪不得2000多年不是被这个占领就是被那个占领。应该学习满洲民族,发现关内明朝是自己最大威胁,闷声发大财,逮到敌人奄奄一息的时候,补一刀夺取天下!

    • 满洲入关说实话属于历史偶发小概率事件。话说当年李成梁没有一时心慈手软做掉努尔哈赤这个小祸根后面哪儿来那么多乱七八糟的破事儿呀?

  11. 真长啊,看的真累,美国猴子极爱刷存在感,那帮人我见了都躲着走。而且在印度和越南人嘴里,中国几乎所有话题都会被躺枪,我都习惯了。

  12. Wanderer Cloud -》Peter Melzer • 12 days agoA bully neighbor as that . The young Vietnamese all want to study in the US. The commie propaganda used to make the kid learn a poem crying for the passing of Stalin. now the joke in Vietnam is : The grandfather cry for Stalin, the father cry for Ho chi minh , now the kids cry for Micheal Jackson!一个恶霸邻居。年轻的越南人都倾慕美国。共产主义的宣传曾经让小孩学习哀悼斯大林的诗歌。现在越南有个笑话:爷爷哭斯大林,父亲哭胡志明,现在的孩子们哭迈克尔杰克逊。杰克逊?。。。落后时代真不是一天两天。。。

  13. isisparadigm -》 vibrato • 21 days agoVietnam is still suffering from unexploded bombs and mines. There are museums where the agent orange babies are still on display and we need to be critical of some corporate stories. Wall Street supported Bush2’s invasion. Vietnam calls the war the American war. Now look at your clothing labels and then try to find out how much the workers are paid and if they have safe work conditions越南人仍在经受未爆弹和地雷的折磨。博物馆里依然在展出橙剂婴儿。我们必须批评某些公司。华尔街支持小布什的侵略活动,越南人将这场战争称为美国战争。现在看看你的衬衫标签,试着找出工人的工资,他们是否有安全的工作条件。小布什表示。。。不带它母亲这么泼脏水的。。。干脆朝鲜战争也算我头上得了。。。

  14. Bajie Zhu • 11 days agoThis is plain propaganda. The Chinese over millennia likely killed fewer Vietnamese than the 6 years of the American Vietnam War.IF indeed it were true that the Vietnamese cannot resolve their feelings towards the Chinese, it is the fault of the Vietnamese government. Life is about choices. It is not likely that Vietnam will get the long end of the stick any time soon as against an ascending China. Does Vietnam truly expect to come out ahead disputing the South China Sea territorial claims? First casualty would be all the Chinese investments instead going to neighbors and bypassing Vietnam. Rational leaders would rationally lead their people towards working constructively with China, and benefiting from the new institutions such as AIIB and the Silk Road projects. The opportunity is there for all to set aside disputes, and seek to make the lives of the common people richer first.这是宣传文章。千年以来中国人杀死的越南人总和远小于美国人六年之中干的。如果这是真的,如果越南人不能解决他们对中国的感情,这是越南政府的过错。生活就是选择。越南不可能成功对抗快速上升的中国。越南人真的希望去争夺南中国海争议领土?首先将损失所有的中国的投资,将投入邻国和绕过越南。理性的领导人会带领人民走向理性,与中国进行建设性的合作,并受益于新的机构如AIIB和丝绸之路项目。有机会大家搁置争议,寻求使普通人生活更富足应该排在第一。这是P话。。。你们要学习伟大的皿煮超级大国印度。。。皿煮的乞讨好过独菜的温饱。。。

  15. Hien Nguyen • 15 days agoNoth Vietnam invaded South Vietnam violated Paris Peace accord in 1973. Le Duan said: “”We” fought the South was for China and Russia”. Meant North Vietnam has been China and Russia’s mercenary army using “united country” as propaganda. Viet Commies used it to stay in power. Ho Chi Minh was a number 7th war criminal in the world.北越入侵南越违反了1973年巴黎和平协议。黎笋说:“我们为了中国和俄罗斯在南方作战”。这意味着越南北部一直是中国和俄罗斯的雇佣军,同一国家只不过是块招牌,越南GCD利用它掌控政权。胡志明是世界上的第七号战犯。信美帝,得永生啊。。。阿门。。。

  16. thanh nguyen • 21 days agoFor centuries, the Chinese invaders have never stopped conquering Vietnam. It’s in their blood and brain. When you live next to a neighbor who always want to rob your house and kill your family. What would you do? what kind of a neighbor is that?几个世纪以来,中国侵略者从未停止征服越南的举动,这已经烙印于他们的血液和大脑。当你拥有一个一直想洗劫你的家园杀害你的家人的邻居,你会怎么办?一个怎么样的邻居啊?那你们去柬埔寨是为了建设和谐社会喽。。。

  17. kwayzywabbit • 21 days agoWar is costly, and the PRC paid for all the ammo during the first Indochina war, as well as half of the second. How can anyone ask China not to require payment, or respect from Vietnam? If you cannot pay for every bullet with a kilo of rice, you have make that up with something else, such as land and dignity.战争是要花钱的,中国为第一次印支战争的军火付了全款,第二次印支战争一半。中国怎么就不能要求越南的报答和尊敬。如果你不能为每一粒子弹支付一公斤大米,那么就拿其他的来换吧,比如说土地和尊严。moebius2249-》 kwayzywabbit • 21 days agoSo China can take whatever it wants from Vietnam?那么中国就可以在越南拿走他想要的东西?kwayzywabbit -》 moebius2249 • 21 days agoyes, and they did, and are taking, and will take more.正是这样,他们拿了,还在拿,而且将要拿更多。moebius2249-》 kwayzywabbit • 21 days agoJust wanted to clarify that you’re indeed an authoritarian.只想说,你是个权力至上者。过分。。。这是在诛心啊。。。就不能和平点儿让人家沾点儿便宜吗。。。人家好歹也是第三军事强国。。。曾经的。。。