2015-05-23 13:44 109个评论 字号:

谅山,越南北部的一个城市。在这个城市多个战争公墓之中的一个,Pham Thi KY和她的家人焚香祭奠她的姐夫。36年前,他死在越南与中国的短暂却血腥的边境战争中。1979年的战争造成超过50000人死亡。这里也有其他的坟墓,比如说和法国占领者、美国人战斗中的牺牲者。但相对于中国,那都是些短暂的战斗。多个世纪以来,没有哪个国家象中国一样在越南人心中占有如此大的比重。当Pham Thi KY她点燃另一支蜡烛时,我问她:“曾经和中国的冲突真的结束了吗”。

来源:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com/bbs/thread-347191-1-1.html


Ask The Vietnamese About War, And They Think China, Not The U.S.


In one of the many war cemeteries in Lang Son, a city in northern Vietnam, Pham Thi Ky and her family light incense and offer prayers for her brother-in-law, who died 36 years ago in Vietnam’s brief but bloody border war with China.

That 1979 war left more than 50,000 dead. There are other graves here, too. They fought and died against the French occupiers, then the Americans. But relative to China, those were brief battles.

No country weighs on Vietnam like China, and it has been that way for centuries. Has the conflict with China ever really ended, I ask Pham Thi Ky as she lights another candle.
“No,” she says. Her daughter agrees. Her sister is even more emphatic. “It will never end. With the Chinese, how can it ever end?”

谅山,越南北部的一个城市。在这个城市多个战争公墓之中的一个,Pham Thi KY和她的家人焚香祭奠她的姐夫。36年前,他死在越南与中国的短暂却血腥的边境战争中。


多个世纪以来,没有哪个国家象中国一样在越南人心中占有如此大的比重。当Pham Thi KY她点燃另一支蜡烛时,我问她:“曾经和中国的冲突真的结束了吗”。


Vietnam’s 2,000 year history with its northern neighbor is complex. There have been countless conflicts as well as shared culture. The Temple of Literature in Hanoi is a good example. It was built by the Vietnamese King Ly Thánh Tông in 1070 to honor the Chinese philosopher Confucius. The teachings on the walls are written in Chinese characters. China is also Vietnam’s largest trading partner.
The two countries share a communist ideology shaped in part by their shared history, an ideology largely abandoned by the rest of the world. That helps explain why the 1979 border war is something neither government likes to talk about. But Nguyen Duy Thuc, a veteran of that war, is happy to.
“On the morning of the attack, February 17th, we were sleeping when the Chinese artillery started, then we all ran to our posts,” he says. “Some were dressed, others didn’t even have time to put their pants on, they just ran to their posts to fight.”

2000年来,越南它的北方邻居关系极其复杂。在无数的冲突同时共享文化。在河内的文庙是一个很好的例子。越南国王Ly TháNH TôNG 1070建造以供奉中国哲学家孔子。墙壁上的教导都是用汉字写的。另外中国是越南最大的贸易伙伴。
部分源于他们共同的历史,两国都具有共产主义意识形态,一个很大程度上被世界其他部分所抛弃的思想。这有助于解释为什么两国政府都不喜欢谈论1979的边境战争。但是Nguyen Duy,一个那次战争的老兵,愿意谈论这个话题。

At least 200,000 Chinese troops poured into northern Vietnam all along the border. China was aiming to punish Vietnam for its invasion of Cambodia the month before to oust the Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. There were so many Chinese attacking, Nguyen Duy Thuc remembers, that the soldiers in his bunker “fired our AK-47s until the muzzles turned red and they couldn’t fire anymore.”
But the Chinese kept coming; eventually his bunker was overrun. The Chinese, he says, pumped gas into the ventilation system. There were 800 people, including soldiers, women and children, who fled the fighting in his bunker, Nguyen says.
Only he and two others managed to escape. After nearly a month, the Chinese withdrew, though border clashes continued for the next decade. And Nguyen Duy Thuc hasn’t forgotten. If he catches his wife trying to watch a Chinese movie, he turns it off.
Memories of that war, and the many other bouts of invasion, occupation and retaliation throughout history, color Vietnam’s relationship with China.

至少有200000中国军队进入了越南北部沿边境。因为月前越南入侵了柬埔寨,推翻了中国支持的红色高棉,中国为此发起了惩戒。有这么多的中国人发起进攻,Nguyen Duy记得:“士兵在他的地堡用AK-47射击直到枪口变红,无法开火为止。”


只有他和另外两人得以逃脱。一个月后,中国收兵。在下个十年中,中国和越南的边界冲突一直持续。Nguyen Duy永远忘不了这场战争。如今,如果他在家里发现妻子看中国电影的时候,一定会去关掉。


That’s especially true now, with the two countries at odds over what Vietnam views as Chinese expansionism in the South China Sea. When China parked an oil rig in contested waters last year, Vietnam upped its official anti-China rhetoric.
And anti-China rioting left at least a dozen dead, including four Taiwanese mistaken for Chinese. As tension grew, and Chinese and Vietnamese boats played a dangerous game of chicken near the rig, some in the border town of Lang Son grew worried. They feared a repeat of what happened in 1979.
“Last year, we were very frightened. We started stockpiling rice and food. I was very worried that there would be war,” says Pham Thi Ky, the woman at the cemetery.
Back in 1979, she says she was forced to flee with nothing but the clothes on her back, so this time she wanted to be prepared. She even went to the bank to withdraw a large sum of money, just in case. But the bank wouldn’t give it to her, apparently fearing a run.
Vietnam isn’t the only one worried.


一场反华暴乱导致了12人死亡,包括四名误认为大陆人的台湾人。两国关系持续紧张,中越船只在南海玩起了危险的游戏(chicken near the rig)。有的在边境城镇–谅山的人开始担心1979重演。

“去年,我们非常害怕,开始储存大米和其他食物” Pham Thi KY在墓地中跟我说。



The Obama administration’s “pivot toward Asia” is prompted, in part, by the idea of trying to contain China’s expansionism, which has its Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.
In the South China Sea, China continues to build on several disputed islands and reefs. In April, satellite photos revealed China was constructing a 2-mile-long, military-grade runway on Fiery Cross Reef, prompting howls of protest from the Philippines and Vietnam, both of which claim the island as their own.
“We think this can be solved diplomatically, but just because the Philippines or Vietnam are not as large as China doesn’t mean that they can just be elbowed aside,” President Obama said.




Duong Trung Quoc, a member of Vietnam’s National Assembly and editor of the magazine Past & Present, says, “I think China is not only Vietnam’s problem, but the world’s problem right now.”
Duong says he admires how China appears to be the only civilization in history to have forced its way back onto the world stage after an interregnum.
“It didn’t happen with Greece, or India,” he says. “But China has a chance.”

Duong Trung Quoc,越南人大代表和杂志《过去与现在》编辑一说,“我认为中国不仅是越南的问题,而且是世界的问题。”



And that’s a problem, he contends, because China still thinks the way it used to back when it was on top.
“China thinks it is at the center. The conquerer. It wants to turn everybody else into its subordinates,” he says. Don’t believe China, Duong says, when it appears to be playing nice. It’s a trap. The Vietnamese, he says, should know.
“After the war, the Vietnamese and the Americans could reconcile. Vietnam and France can reconcile. Veterans from both sides can sit down together and talk. Vietnamese and Chinese veterans hardly ever sit down together,” he says.
Why is this?
“The Vietnamese have had too much experience with the Chinese. The Vietnamese can’t trust the Chinese. We’ve had too much practice,” he adds.
Few in Vietnam’s government talk so openly about the perceived threat from their northern neighbor. They’re wary of igniting more protests, like those last year. And Vietnam’s Communist Party still looks to China as a model of how to keep an authoritarian state in power in the Internet age. But anti-Chinese sentiment among ordinary Vietnamese continues to grow.
Vo Cao Loi lives about a mile from the South China Sea — which the Vietnamese simply call the East Sea — in the central Vietnam city of Danang, where the first U.S. combat troops landed in 1965.
He says he’s a survivor of a massacre next to My Lai, one that claimed 97 lives, including his mother. He no longer considers the Americans enemies, but rather as friends. Allies, even, against Vietnam’s longtime enemy. He believes the Chinese have taken something that belongs to Vietnam.







Vo Cao Lo生活在越南中部岘港市距南中国海(越南称东海)约一英里的地方。岘港,在1965年,第一支美国作战部队于此登陆。


“The Spratly and Paracels (islands) are still partly occupied,” he says. “Of course at some point we have to put our differences aside, but we have to get those islands back first. Because it belongs to our ancestors.”
It doesn’t take him long to acknowledge that probably won’t happen.
“They want to spread their control. They will never give back what they took,” he adds. “Vietnam wants to take it back, but the Chinese are strong. So our struggle will last a long time. How long? I can’t tell.”





Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
“The Temple of Literature in Hanoi is a good example. It was built by the Vietnamese King Ly Thánh Tông in 1070 to honor the Chinese philosopher Confucius. The teachings on the walls are written in Mandarin.”
I think the writer meant Chinese characters. Mandarin is a dialect. Other dialects, as well as other languages, also use the Chinese characters. Chinese is comparable to Latin. It was used by scholars and officials.

“在河内的文庙是一个很好的例子。越南国王Ly TháNH TôNG 1070建造以供奉中国哲学家孔子。墙壁上的教导都是用普通话写的。”


Guest-》Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
Absolutely correct, but Mandarin is very complex and the writer is evidently still trying to master the English language: “The Obama Adminstration’s “pivot toward Asia” is prompted in part with the idea of trying to contain China’s expansionism, which has it’s Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.”

For the gazillionth time, Journalsists: “it’s” means “it is!” The possessive of “it” is “its!”


hoang nguyen -》 Hmmmmmmmmmm • 9 days ago
Technically it’s not Chinese but Classical Chinese or chữ Nho in Vietnamese. Even modern Chinese will find the writings hard to decipher.

从技术上讲,这不是现代汉语,是古典汉语或者越南人说的chữ Nho,即是现代中国人也很难解读。

Peter Melzer -》 Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
The shame is that a French monk in the early 19th century introduced an alphabet which replaced Vietnamese ideographic writing. As a result only some Vietnamese scholars are able to read old texts and know about pre-French history from their own country’s perspective.


Clovis Sangrail -》 Peter Melzer • 10 days ago
The same thing is true in Turkey, which replaced the Arabic alphabet with Roman 80 years ago. Many years ago, I spent an afternoon at the Museum of Turkish and Islamic Art in Istanbul and was admiring an ebony tablet with an inscription in Arabic characters inlaid in the tablet in mother of pearl. A Turkish student who wanted to practice his English attached himself to me and struck up a conversation with “I wonder what it is?” I said that it was obviously a poem. I think he was a bit irritated that a frenk (“European”) like me would presume to make a pronouncement about his culture that he wasn’t able to make himself. His voice rose as he asked me how I could possibly know that. I said that every other line ended in the same group of characters; in short, it rhymed. He triumphantly jabbed his index finger at the right-hand margin, showing me that what I had said wasn’t true. Indeed, there was no repetitive pattern to be seen on the right-hand side of the text. I am sure he thought he had scored a nakaut (“knockout”), and I let him enjoy his imaginary victory, not pointing out to him that Arabic is written from right to left. He was pointing at the wrong side of the tablet. In any case, there is nothing stopping the Vietnamese from transcribing their ancient texts into the modern orthographic system.

类似的事情发生在土耳其,80年前罗马字母取代了阿拉伯字母。许多年前,我花了一个下午的时间在伊斯坦布尔的土耳其和伊斯兰艺术博物馆里欣赏一个有阿拉伯文字铭文的嵌珍珠母乌木片。一个想练习英语的土耳其学生缠上了我,以“我有点好奇这是什么”和我开始对话。我告诉他,这明显是一首诗。我想他有点恼火,因为一个frenk,欧洲人可以对他他本国文化解读,而他却不能。他的嗓门提高了,问我是怎么知道的。我告诉他很明显每一行结尾于同一组字母,简单地说,就是押韵。他得意洋洋地用食指猛戳右手边缘,表示他不信我所言。确实,在文本的右边没有重复的模式。我可以肯定,他一定觉得自己进了个nakaut (“knockout”),我让他去欣赏自己的虚幻胜利,没有告诉他阿拉伯文是从右向左书写的。他指错了铭文的边。不管怎么说,没有什么能阻止越南人将他们的古老文本抄录至现代文字系统。

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