从这里了解印度人对中国的看法

西方课本中的中国1840-1940年间屈辱史

2014-11-18 15:37 205个评论 字号:

美国人和欧洲人怎么看待中华民族1840-1940年间的百年屈辱?在你们国家的课本中是怎么描述的?在美国,这段时期存 在两种互有冲突的观点。一种是官方的正面的看法,把中国视作一个与美国类似的大陆国家,一个大国,盟友,潜在的贸易伙伴,美国科学和组织机构的学习者,潜 在的基督教皈依者。还有一种是流行的、负面而充满冷嘲热讽的观点,认为中国是一个贫穷、落后而无望、文化怪异的国家,拥有无限的廉价劳动力可以拖垮美国工 人的收入。

译者:一雫
来源:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com/wtfy/14933.html
外文:https://www.quora.com/What-do-Americans-or-Europeans-think-about-the-century-old-humiliation-of-the-Chinese-nation-between-1840-and-1940

20141416278622

What do Americans or Europeans think about thecentury-old humiliation of the Chinese nation between 1840 and 1940?

What is written about itin the text-books of these countries?

美国人和欧洲人怎么看待中华民族1840-1940年间的百年屈辱?

在你们国家的课本中是怎么描述的?

评论翻译

Joseph Boyle
19 upvotesby Sed Chapman, Don Johnson, Joe Geronimo Martinez, (more)
InAmerica during this period the tension was between the official positive viewof China as a major power of similar continental extent, ally, potential tradepartner, student of American science and organization, and potential convert toChristianity; and a darker cynical popular view of China as poor, frustratinglybackward, culturally strange, and limitless source of cheap labor that couldundermine American workers’ earnings.

在美国,这段时期存在两种互有冲突的观点。一种是官方的正面的看法,把中国视作一个与美国类似的大陆国家,一个大国,盟友,潜在的贸易伙伴,美国科学和组织机构的学习者,潜在的基督教皈依者。还有一种是流行的、负面而充满冷嘲热讽的观点,认为中国是一个贫穷、落后而无望、文化怪异的国家,拥有无限的廉价劳动力可以拖垮美国工人的收入。

In China apparently the troubled century is presented primarily in terms ofinsults to the Chinese state such as the Opium War, sacking of the SummerPalace, etc., or at least this is what people from the PRC seem to mention.This history is at most mentioned very briefly in American world historytextbooks. Beyond that, only a few university students take coursesspecifically on Chinese or Asian history.

在中国,这动荡的一百年主要被表述成无数次的丧权辱国,例如鸦片战争、圆明园劫掠等等——至少PRC的国民是这样陈述的。这段历史在美国的世界历史教材里写得很简略,除此之外只有少部分大学生会特意去选修中国史或亚洲史

American hostility to China has consistently come from the working class andorganized labor movement, while elites tended to see China as an opportunity.

美国人对中国的敌意主要来自工人阶级和有组织的劳工运动,而上层人士更倾向于把中国视作一个机会

 

AndyLee Chaisiri, Game Designer, Art Director, &… (more)
123 upvotes by Jadeson Chen, Ericko Samudera, KoushikRajagopalan, (more)
“Chinesereally suck at fighting”

中国人打仗真的太烂了。

That’s the main impression you get. History class is mostly the story of majorwars, and the only time I learned about China in the classroom when they lose.So you get to read about how Chinese only rely on sheer numbers as they getblown away by guns and cannons through Britain’s drug invasion to the Boxer Uprising.

这就是你主要的印象。历史课主要都是在讲大战的故事,而我学到中国的时候都是他们打输的时候。所以你读到的是中国人从和英国的鸦片战争到义和拳运动,面对洋枪洋炮都只能依靠绝对数量,毫无还手之力

There’s also not much sympathy either. Like for the fall of the Roman Empireyou get the impression “wow,a great culture has fallen to barbarians, such a tragedy” but the fall of the Qing is more “Wow these guys are stupidlyincompetent, no wonder a more vigorous culture defeated them”.

在我们的历史表述中也没多少同情成分。罗马帝国的陨落你可能会觉得“噢,一个伟大的文明被野蛮人征服了,多么悲哀”,但清朝的覆没更多的是“噢,这些人既愚蠢又无能,难怪更有活力的文明击败了他们。”

I’ve found out otherwise on my own (likehow a Muslim Chinese army using German weaponry defeated every western armythey encountered in the Boxer Uprising), but if all I learned about Chinawas from school I’d just think of them as some kind of orc/goblin horde.

我发现除非是我自己去学习(例如一支中国穆斯林军队在义和拳运动【注:原文为拳乱,下同】中用德国的军火击败了他们遇到的每一支西方军队),如果我只是从学校课堂上去了解中国,我对他们的印象就是兽人/哥布林部落。

There’s not much covering the Republic of China and the Communist rebellioneither. I remember it being summed up in one chapter of my history book, therest was about Japan invading China and helpless Chinese being slaughtereduntil brave Americans swooped in with airplanes to rescue them. ‘Course thenext chapter is about Chinese hordes swooping into Korea getting blown away bymachine guns and artillery. I think they called it ‘human wave’ tactics and itwas presented in a negative light, even though operations like D-Day were alsoa human wave relying on sheer numbers to get past machine gun fire, but it waspresented more heroically.

对中华民国和GCD的叛乱也没多少内容。我记得在我的历史书里一章就概括了,剩下的全是日本侵略中国,中国人无助地被虐杀,直到勇敢的美国人开着飞机从天而降拯救了他们。当然下一章就是一群群的中国人踏入朝鲜被机关枪和火炮炸飞。他们将其称之为“人海战术”,充满了负面色彩,尽管如诺曼底登陆页同样是倚靠绝对数量以人海战术突破了机关枪的火力,但是却描述得更加英雄主义

The Nanjing massacre usually gets its own day to learn about as we see how theJapanese were monsters that deserved to be punished but… it’s kind of oddthat just a few chapters before when China got invaded by westerners, we gointo lots of detail about the ‘reasons’ they did it like how China wasinterfering with ‘free trade'(Chineseauthorities did not want opium in their country)with Britain, or howxenophobic Chinese cruelly attacked and mutilated westerners so the westerninvaders were actually just punishing a crime, or a vague sense of socialDarwinism that ‘well Chineseare really shitty at fighting so it’s their own fault for losing’. When Ilooked up the Boxer Uprising on my own I found various accounts of westernsoldiers raping and mutilating Chinese women, but that’s something my historyclass never mentioned, and if anything they kind of pre-emptively denied themwith a segment on how Chinese were spreading’rumors’ about westerners performing medicalexperiments on Chinese to incite them to kill westerners and we’re suppose tolaugh at how absurd the idea is(andhow dumb the Chinese are for believing it).

南京大屠杀通常单独学习,然后我们看到日本人如野兽一般值得被惩罚。但是奇怪之处在于,在这之前几章就是中国被西方人侵略。我们发掘了许多他们为什么要这么做的细致理由,例如中国干扰了和英国的“自由贸易”(中国政府不想让鸦片进入他们的国家),或者排外的中国人残忍地袭击和伤害了西方人所以西方侵略者只是在惩罚犯罪行为,或者是一种模糊的社会达尔文主义:“中国人打仗真的烂透了所以打输是他们自己的错”。当我自己去研究义和拳运动的资料的时候,我发现无数档案显示西方士兵强奸并伤害了中国的妇女,但是我的历史课从不提及这些事。他们预先否认了这一切,把这些断章截句地表述称中国人散布了“西方人在中国人身上做药物试验”的谣言来激发起大众杀洋鬼子的愤怒。我们会因此而嘲笑这些想法的荒谬(以及相信了它们的中国人是如何地愚蠢)。

That and starving. Also footbinding too.

以及饥荒和缠足。

Some American writers grew up with this as their only source on China(particularlyolder generations as they didn’t have Quora back them to learn more), soyou’ll often see a highly negative depiction of ‘ancient’ China. Like if youread Neal Stephenson’s post cyberpunk/futurist/sci-fi novel’A Diamond Age’ you can see how an otherwiseintelligent and well informed author depicts China as a ravening horde ofgoblins, because that’s what he learned in school about them.

一些美国作者从小到大对中国的了解只限于这样的材料(特别是老一辈,他们没有可以令他们学到更多的Quora),所以你总是看到对“古代”中国极端负面的叙述。例如如果你读到尼尔·斯蒂芬森的赛博朋克/未来主义/科幻小说“钻石年代”,你会发现一位如此智慧渊博的作者都把中国描述为一群贪婪的哥布林部落,因为那就是他们在学校里学到的知识。

*A good example of ‘Chinese suck at fighting’ is how one presents the Jindynasty. When the Jin defeat the Song dynasty it’s described as “Northernnomads defeat China”, but when the Mongols defeat the Jin it’s describedas “Mongols defeat China”. The Jin are not Chinese if they win, butare Chinese if they lose, strange huh?

“中国人打仗很烂”的好例子是金朝。当金国打败了宋朝,就被描述为“北方的游牧民族打败了中国”,但当蒙古人打败了金人,就被表述为“蒙古打败了中国”。金人如果赢了就不是中国人,但如果他们输了他们就是,奇怪吧?

 

Erica Friedman, TheLibrarian is IN, 5₵

50 upvotesby Dennis Ferguson, Andy Warwick, Sed Chapman, (more)

I have apersonal rule about grudges – let ’em go.

我对怨恨的个人看法是——随它们去吧。

Yes, Britain was pretty cruel to China during the Boxer rebellion, yes theAmerican government were cruel to Natives during the same time. History isliterally a list of people doing terrible things to other people and animals,and plants and this planet. If we obsess about a wrong from 100 years ago, 150years ago, do we make it better? Do we stop it from happening?

是的,英国人在义和拳运动中对中国十分残忍,是的美国政府与此同时对印第安土著也十分残忍。历史本质上就是一群人对另一群人和动物、植物以及整个星球犯下的罪恶的清单。如果我们沉溺于一百年前、一百五十年前的错误之中,我们怎么能改善呢?我们能阻止这些事发生吗?

How far back do we hold grudges? Am I to continue to be angry at Antiochus fordestroying the Temple in Jerusalem? Or for the destruction of the Roman Empire?If I hold a grudge for Germany about National Socialism, I’ll miss that they’vebecome a pretty amazing country since then and that my own country is capableof having a National Socialist Party pop up at any time.

我们要心怀怨恨多久?我应该为安条克毁灭了耶路撒冷的神庙、为罗马帝国的覆没而愤怒吗?如果我因为纳粹对德国心怀怨恨,那我就忽视了他们自那以后已经成为了一个了不起的国家的事实,也无视了我自己的国家随时可能冒出一个纳粹党的现实。

What good is it to comment on the mote of dust in my neighbor’s eye and ignorethe beam in my own?

指摘我邻居眼中的尘粒,看不到我自己的光,有什么好处?

You were not around between 1840 and 1940. Neither was I. How about weaddress the real issues that exist now, rather than ones that are faitaccompli?

你已经不再生活在1840-1940年代了,我也不是。我们放下那些既成事实,讨论一下现在存在的问题怎么样?



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